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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:38 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Sure, your comments are welcome and you can criticize at will. What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact. It's quite a bit different to be told that your rubato is erratic and exaggerated flat out and be told that someone doesn't agree with it. And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd! Oh well, I basically admitted in my initial post that these aren't finished, but as good as I can get them for now. At least I tried... :roll:

Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details. I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it. Personally I find it more constructive to take criticism to heart, and do something with it, than to balk against it. But ok, everybody is different.

Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Quote:
Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details.


There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Quote:
Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.


No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before). After all, how can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand? It sounded tense to the listener, that's all there was to it, whether Joe accepted it or not - but of course he'll have nothing of it. His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?
:(

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:06 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:18 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:22 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Ah shucks, millions of people play better than I do. I've no trouble admitting that. Then again, I play better than millions of people. That is what keeps me going.

jlr43 wrote:
Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

I usually do not read others' comments before listening to something, so as not to be biased. And I did not in this case, but decided right away against voicing certain reservations I had. Not that it matters much.

jlr43 wrote:
No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

Fine with me. Saves a lot of work :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:04 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

Same here. Some people have their interpretations all worked out, backed up by historical evidence, to the point there is no point in pointing out an alternative point of view.

Terez wrote:
Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not.

Surely not. But I do know when to shut up :)

Terez wrote:
I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here). To Joe's credit, he usually does that when offering criticism.

Great discussion ! At last some life again in the old forum (thanks Joe). Pity I have to go to bed.... But something to look forward to for tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:15 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here).

I usually do point out the things I like. Sometimes, though, the only good thing I can come up with is 'you played most of the notes correctly', or perhaps something along the lines of 'A complete set! An accomplishment even if the performances are unconvincing.'

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Quote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).


This claim is totally false. Please look back at the two previous Beethoven and Liszt recordings, as well as the initial Chopin/Scriabin, in which I accepted almost everything Chris, in particular, had to say and thanked people graciously for their comments, many of which were critical. They were specific, and I could use them to improve, and I tried to. I don't like generalizations; I think they're garbage made to think the reviewer is high and mighty and really the arbiter of taste and I'm human and take offense to that. There was really nothing specifically good that anyone could say about my preludes, and that means I failed or no one is even hearing a fraction of what I hear. Whatever. Also note that you willfully misconstrued my initialy argument with you, which was specifically about the fact that I gave Jana Marinova a less-than-glowing review when I had every right to and you questioned that right. It really had nothing to do with your criticisms, my opinion of which I kept silent until you asked me later. But you kept on thinking it did, no matter how many times I told you it didn't. No use talking to a stone wall.

Quote:
How can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand?


I can deny it because it logically makes no sense. Then say the effect was too tight or tense. There's no possible way that could be known about my physical hand. It's a rather personal statement and is, I can honestly say, completely false.

Quote:
His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?


Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years. I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders. I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Joe, if you leave now you won't be able to cut me to shreds when I submit in (hopefully within) 3-4 weeks, maybe sooner. You'll certainly want to stick around for that. :twisted: However, I have to echo Chris in remarking that your critiques per se of other's performances are by-and-large very fair and considered, even insightful sometimes (we musicians are all idiologues, after all). It's your replies to those who critique you that are just horrible. Look at some of the labels/adjectives you've used. It's simply childish.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:21 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years.

It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.

jlr43 wrote:
I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders.

Do I detect a hint of generalization here ?

jlr43 wrote:
I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

Oh no please don't go :lol:

But if you can't bear with spineless pompous prattlers like us, it might indeed be best to try elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:43 am 
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I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up', because honestly, I probably would have kept my comments to myself if George hadn't spelled them out first. I like George, but I wouldn't exactly say we're close, so have no fear that it's some sort of conspiracy. He just happened to say what was on my mind, and that encouraged me to post my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 am 
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Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

Okay, then. I feel like I should at least acknowledge that I am a coward. Sometimes. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Dear Joe,

I wish this didn't go all crazy like what has happened before. I was too busy yesterday to chime in, and frankly I was getting worn out just trying to keep with everybody so I couldn't make myself even bother to say anything. I'm trying to stay neutral through all this, but have to tell you that you brought this all on yourself. You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree. But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.

You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here. Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something. :)

I only listened to the Preludes I like most which were 10, 12, 13, and 21. I think you played them all just fine and really have nothing to nitpick, except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.

Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!

Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.

~Monica

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Hi Joe,

I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Quote:
It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.


The criticism? Nope. But, to repeat myself, I don't like when people dismiss something as needing more musicality (about as vague a statement as you can make), and then don't explain why, for it's that "why" that might enable me to improve. From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about. That's really the only thing that bothers me is when people do that -- toss around empty adjectives and characterizations that, of course, cannot help but influence other people who see it -- for what to do about that in the short term...if something lacks musicality, then I guess it just does for that person, but it's sort of unproductive for the person being commented on. But yes, I admit it's their prerogative to do so. Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course; Julian Gorus's nocturne is the one exception recently -- wow). For example, I detest Kissin and find it totally unmusical; many others will disagree and that's fine. I usually have a very definite idea (particularly for standard repertoire like Chopin) of exactly what I want to hear in a particular piece (akin to Terez's "pickiness" I guess :P ), but I also try to hear it from the other person's perspective. In many cases, though, something is downright fumbling and gauche IMO but I still try to find something encouraging to say, and of course that would generally fall into the "musical" category -- i.e., when the technique is bad, it's difficult to even tell (e.g., when it's uneven, grossly pedalled, unclear) what the musical intention is, but I still try because I think that's more appropriate for an amateur forum. But certainly, I'd be glad to use the same style I use when I write critical reviews of professional performances -- that is, be brutally honest and tear apart technique, interpretation, everything, say exactly what I think. I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen: I could be like Terez and post nothing and only comment on others. :)

Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.

Thanks,

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:49 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about.

That could be the problem, that we don't know what we are talking about here.

jlr43 wrote:
Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course;

Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?

jlr43 wrote:
I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen:

Oh yes, I'd fully expected you to tear those to shreds. Got away lucky didn't I !

jlr43 wrote:
Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.


Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:50 pm 
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You're right, David. Joe didn't acknowledge me either! Thanks a lot Joe. :x And now you expect us to put up the recordings? Do you know how long that will take.... :?: :x

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Oh Chris, you got in before me. If you want me to help, I can do so over the weekend. There is no rush here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Quote:
You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree.


Very true -- but then, so have I. At least Chris acknowledged that, but I don't think anyone else has. And yes, we don't have to agree on everything (it's far more interesting if we don't), but I don't phrase my comments as absolute. I'll often say that it's only my limited opinion (e.g., IMHO) and not come in like George, acting like a bit of a hot shot and as if he has the last word on it.

Quote:
But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.


I apologize for that.

Quote:
You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here.


Commenting on others? The only thing I would object to in this statement is that if people feel that they can, for instance, use adjectives (like "ugly," "erratic," "lacking musicality," "heavy-handed" in the past) and say what they think about my playing, I should be allowed to do the same and not hold back. I've held back many such descriptors and thoughts in the past (though I'm not certainly not at all innocent of it), because I don't think it's really productive, but as they say, it's a two-way street. And in particular, those who dish out should be willing to take as well. You're right that I overreacted here, but I've taken many comments gracefully in the past, so I don't think Eddy's comments were fair either. The bottom line is that anyone putting stuff out for the world ought to be ready to take any type of criticism or comments the way a professional would, and that would include, to some extent, some of my responses to them, without getting bent out of shape about it. That's the way it is in the world. I apologize again for some of the comments in this thread crossing over into "rude" territory.

Quote:
Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something.


No, I never would with you anyway. When you object to something, you pretty much always say why (and are clear about it too), and I appreciate that.

Quote:
except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.


I agree. I think I need to work the pedaling out better for 21 (one of the more subtle ones to interpret IMO). It seems easy for it either to be too dry or too muddled.

Quote:
Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!


I agree about No. 4 as well, I think especially the triplet was a little too quick and jarring, so it gave that effect. What can I say about anger? I'm still an angry young man :P

Quote:
Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.


To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?


Geez, Chris, all I meant was that taste is very individual, and my playing is not for most taste, but I can also say that about most other people. Terez seems to agree about this aspect, at least I thought. I hate to bring this up, but do you think I would have donated $200 to the site if I didn't basically like it? This is what I mean about ganging up. Regarding being honest about things, damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. Maybe I just have no life nor free time to practice for "polished" performances, so this is my only outlet...

Quote:
Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.


Thanks again, and sorry that I'm such an unwelcome asshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.


David,

I'm very sorry, I completely missed your post before. Yes, I prefer more specific comments, even about good things, but whatever, just my dumb limited opinion, for what it's worth. Thanks again for the comments and sorry about missing your post before.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore :roll: :lol:

I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:11 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.


Some of that is true - I don't like listening to whole sonatas or more than two or three files at a time. But when I do, I of course not only listen and comment, but then I get to spend precious personal time updating the site. I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up. It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:24 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up.

Same here, I've long stopped trying to listen to all and everything that is submitted here, and don't take the time for everybody to follow with score and spell out the fine details. In many cases, a sanity check and some general comments will have to do.

pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

As for the "I won't comment on your recordings if you don't comment on mine" game is not one I really like to play. But it is only natural that it happens that way sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore


Well at least I may help start some controversy. Maybe it's just me, but I think there's too much agreement in the world.

Quote:
I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.


Thanks, though I may need to re-upload the first 8.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:06 pm 
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They're up

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Hi Joe,

If it was simply an oversight, I can understand that and accept your apology.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:34 pm 
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techneut wrote:
pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future, but usually you can handle whatever I say, which is why I comment on your recordings most often these days. I think it's because your personality is such that it doesn't bother you when I tell you what is on my mind. (Just like it doesn't bother me when you tell me what is on your mind.) And if you disagree with something I say you can blow it off and not get upset about it. Other than that I generally listen to the Chopin recordings, and sometimes Bach. Every now and then something different.

Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:13 am 
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Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free.


Well I actually had googled you and found that recital on the Internet already. :oops: :P Of course I would never retaliate, so I didn't want to mention it. If you'd like to know, I listened to the Ocean and Winter Wind. Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven. I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work. Just my limited opinion of course. I would be glad to do a more detailed critique of something if you really ever wanted that.

That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:24 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven.

Agreed.

Quote:
I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work.

Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).

Quote:
That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

Like I said, no sweat. I was reluctant to comment mostly because we don't know each other and I feared it would come off as random to you. As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato (though let's not debate about that again :lol:). In this one the melody is what holds it all together (kinda like 25/1 in that sense).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:45 am 
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Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).


I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature. If you can play those, you can play anything. Even the Lizzt Paganinis and Transcendentals pale in comparison IMO. Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity :P ) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops: :P ). I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

Quote:
As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato
. True, my LH triplet should probably be more pronounced to help fix that too. I know both Chopin and Liszt insisted that be clear in their teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:03 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).


I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature.

I'm working on the most difficult of them, but I'm still of the opinion that many of the preludes are just as difficult. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that the preludes are in general easier, just because there are more easy preludes than easy etudes. The most difficult preludes are right up there with the most difficult etudes, even when they are shorter.

Quote:
If you can play those, you can play anything.

One day. :lol:

Quote:
Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity :P ) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

Moscheles, I don't care for much, though I understand why Chopin liked him better than certain other contemporaries. Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).

Quote:
I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops: :P ).

I do remember it! Only vaguely, so I wasn't sure if I was misremembering (it came to mind after you responded to me and George), but I seemed to remember Chris using one of those adjectives you don't like. You were new-ish then weren't you?

Quote:
I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

I find their technique to be more instructive and generally applicable than that of other composers. Of course, it helps that they are my favorites too. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:28 am 
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Terez wrote:
Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future


Terez, you are not really a member of PS and so you are not required to comment on members' recordings. But the fact that you sometimes do is I'm sure appreciated by all. If I failed to acknowledge one of your comments, then I apologize; I'm usually careful about things like that. However, why did you not tell something like this to me directly, instead of this silly, immature third-party manner? Are we in 7th grade again here or what? :roll:

That's it from me here - good that you and Joe have kissed and made up. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:39 am 
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pianolady wrote:
Terez wrote:
Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future


Terez, you are not really a member of PS and so you are not required to comment on members' recordings.

That's good to know.

Quote:
But the fact that you sometimes do is I'm sure appreciated by all. If I failed to acknowledge one of your comments, then I apologize; I'm usually careful about things like that. However, why did you not tell something like this to me directly, instead of this silly, immature third-party manner? Are we in 7th grade again here? :roll:

I had wondered the same thing myself. It wasn't that my comment was unacknowledged - you got upset about it, and immediately proceeded to treat me very strangely, as if you held a grudge about it. I have considered emailing you about it several times, but I was reluctant because I (for some strange reason) feared I would get a snarky response.

Quote:
That's it from me here - good that you and Joe have kissed and made up. :)

I always prefer getting along to not getting along.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:03 am 
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I feel the need to add that I really like PS and everyone here, and the fact that I can't figure out how to get along with some of you at times is certainly my fault, at least to a point. I have the same problem in every internet community where I am a member, so I should be honest about that. I love having conversations with you guys about music, though of course those are always best when there is no ill will between the members involved (so that we should never be reluctant to disagree with each other), so I want to make it clear I don't have any ill will for anyone here, and I apologize for being the way I am (whatever that is - I'm still trying to figure it out). I would like to be a real member some day, but in the meantime I hope that I can add something to the conversations here as I've always tried to do. And I will occasionally post links to practice recordings for people to criticize (for now probably in the Chopin etudes thread) if they are of a mind to do so, or more generally because the nature of this forum leads one to wonder how the individual in question plays the piano, and while I realize not everyone cares, it seems to be an unspoken requirement of sorts.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Quote:
I'm working on the most difficult of them, but I'm still of the opinion that many of the preludes are just as difficult. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that the preludes are in general easier, just because there are more easy preludes than easy etudes. The most difficult preludes are right up there with the most difficult etudes, even when they are shorter.


Yes, I agree. I think if Nos. 5, 16, and 19 of the preludes were longer, they would be among the most difficult works in Chopin's canon.

Quote:
Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).


Interesting, it's just the opposite for me. Cortot often seems to finger to suit his musical intentions, but they often don't fit my hand whereas I actually use Mikuli's edition of the preludes overall, because I like his fingerings, but then open Cortot for the exercises. Btw, where is Alfonzo? I actually liked his playing :P

Quote:
So I want to make it clear I don't have any ill will for anyone here, and I apologize for being the way I am (whatever that is - I'm still trying to figure it out).


Well as you said before, no sweat. I could very easily say the same thing about myself. We all have our foibles...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Joe wrote:
Terez wrote:
Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).


Interesting, it's just the opposite for me. Cortot often seems to finger to suit his musical intentions, but they often don't fit my hand whereas I actually use Mikuli's edition of the preludes overall, because I like his fingerings, but then open Cortot for the exercises. Btw, where is Alfonzo? I actually liked his playing :P

Doesn't everyone? :wink: He's made some posts recently in the AR and on General, if you feel like looking. As for the fingerings, to be honest my opinion is based on some pretty limited cross-referencing I've done. I'm actually really bad about paying attention to fingerings in books in general. Partly that is because I've come across some bad ones and I feel like I can't trust them, and I'm too lazy to research which fingerings were Chopin's. Partly it's because I learned my first Bach pieces from a book with no fingerings and had to figure them out on my own. I like that. But I need to find a happy medium somewhere. I have a bad habit of not really starting to work on a piece until it's memorized. Sometimes by then I've gathered the best fingerings from the score and my own experimentation. Sometimes not. Like, I just discovered I was using all the wrong fingerings in 10/4. I'm sure the right ones are in Mikuli, Cortot, or both, but I haven't checked yet. I'm trying to learn the logic behind them...and the frustrating thing is that I know the logic behind them a lot of the time, but I still make bad choices.

I was teaching Für Elise to an 11-year-old girl recently. She really wanted to learn it. As I would demonstrate it for her, I remembered the fingerings I used when I taught it to myself as a child. Needless to say, they were horribly illogical fingerings. But it made me laugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:42 am 
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I always decide my own fingering for everything I play. Any fingering that I play that is the same in a score is coincidence or an agreement between minds.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:10 am 
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Hi,

I take a stance similar to Eddy's on fingering. Everyone's hand is a bit different from the next pianist's, so there will be variations on how best to adapt. For the most part I figure out my own fingerings too. I look for efficient and comfortable options, and the fewer fingers involved, the better. Often I can bring scale fingering of a particular key into the fingering scheme. If there is a tricky figure that happens to be fingered in the edition, I'll try it, but I might accept or reject it and work on another approach. When it comes to fingering by composers, the ones I never fail to consider is Rachmaninoff's, but keeping in mind his huge hands. Seldom did he write out fingerings, but all the more reason take notice of them. Fingering by publishing editors interests me the least, as sometimes it's abominable; however, any fingering developed by Rafael Joseffy I inspect closely, as he was a genius in this regard. Even at that, if it's not a good fit for my hand, then I work on modifications.

Some pianists write out huge amounts of fingering in a score. I limit it when first studying a new piece to passage work where it's immediately obvious to me that I need to work out some fingerings from the get-go. No matter how useful initial fingerings might seem, I always consider them to be tentative. And sure enough, as I become more familiar with the music, often I'll later change a fingering at least slightly to another that seems more natural. The other instance of devising fingering occurs during practicing. If there is a jerk of the hand followed by wrong notes, that calls for an examination of fingering to diagnose and improve it.

Fingering is important, but sometimes it's not the last word. For example, an error might occur due to poor anticipation and timing of getting the hand into position. Or, it might be that the entire playing mechanism--quite beyond fingers per se--needs to participate, for instance, perhaps the elbow needs to move away from the body allowing the upper arm to better direct the forearm, wrist and hand to their destination. These movements probably fall under what the pedagogue Josef Gat used to refer to as "integrative" and "synthesizing" motions. Or maybe the two wrists need to find an accommodation such as raising one and lowering the other such that they can "cohabitate" in close quarters on the keyboard. This, of course, is the choreography of the hands. And need I add that sometimes, quite apart from fingering, that one hand (the LH being the most usual suspect) simply does not actually "know" its part well enough, calling then for a hands-alone drill for that passage. I think that this kind of analysis is a fascinating part of practicing.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:11 am 
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David,
I can tell by reading your post that, like me, you love to practice! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:53 pm 
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Hi Eddy,

Yes, I love practicing. :) What other activity than learning new pieces and practicing them for performance or recording could better keep the mind sharp? Given that, practicing carries over into other life endeavors too in a useful and positive way.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:16 pm 
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24 Tirades, Op. 1:
jlr43 wrote:
1. "It has more to do with the fact that I find these rather vague assertions that "critics" throw around to be meaningless crap, usually because they want to champion their personal favorite and denigrate everyone else (i.e., rather unobjectively)."
2. "And thank god I don't have to listen to cheese-sniffing critics pointing it out to me. "Unfaithful to the score! Unfaithful to the score!"
3. "Even the greatest of the great, who IMO aren't great because they played it a standard way but because they played it in a new way, which is why Kissin, Pogorelich, Argerich, Ashkenazy, Garrick Ohlsson, as fluid and perfect as they are, will never interest me and I will never think they're great."
4. "I only say it to point out that I'm a bit sick of people vaguely criticizing my "musicality,"
5. "Nah, don't bother. I don't want to pollute any of the wonderful interpretations of these pieces on the site with my engineer-like and tension-filled efforts. Thanks for the time."
6. "What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact."
7. "And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd!"
8. "Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?"
9. "No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical."
10. "In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you."
11. "I don't like generalizations; I think they're garbage made to think the reviewer is high and mighty and really the arbiter of taste and I'm human and take offense to that.
12. "There was really nothing specifically good that anyone could say about my preludes, and that means I failed or no one is even hearing a fraction of what I hear."
13. "I gave Jana Marinova a less-than-glowing review when I had every right to and you questioned that right."
14. "No use talking to a stone wall."
15. "I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years."
16. "I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.
17. "From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about. That's really the only thing that bothers me is when people do that -- toss around empty adjectives and characterizations that, of course, cannot help but influence other people who see it."
18. "Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course;"
19. "I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up?"
20. "I'll often say that it's only my limited opinion (e.g., IMHO) and not come in like George, acting like a bit of a hot shot and as if he has the last word on it."
21. "The bottom line is that anyone putting stuff out for the world ought to be ready to take any type of criticism or comments the way a professional would, and that would include, to some extent, some of my responses to them, without getting bent out of shape about it. That's the way it is in the world."
22. "What can I say about anger? I'm still an angry young man."
23. "I hate to bring this up, but do you think I would have donated $200 to the site if I didn't basically like it?"
24. "Thanks again, and sorry that I'm such an unwelcome asshole."

I finally got the chance to chime in. No, this is not a transcript from Jerry Springer nor the Maury Povich Show... Anger is hopeless. To the insults cast onto me, PS, and to almost everyone in the thread, I choose to respond with humor, and now I can't stop laughing at the above chronology of events. Since no one is talking about the 24 Preludes anymore, Joe gave an encore performance of the 24 Tirades. My favorite Prel--, I mean Tirades are Nos. 4, 6, 10, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20 (of course), 22, and the dramatic 24. :P

I am not on the site often enough to have known better than to deal with a belligerent individual. I am not hurt or angry, just very sad to see such great talent bestowed to an irate soul. It's interesting how one's temperament and personality finds its way into the music. After the reality show that has unfolded here, my initial statements (erratic, exaggerated, flip, awkwardly disjointed, need for maturity), seems to apply to the behavior, as well as the music. After reading your 24 Tirades, there is no purpose in explaining what "musicality" means; the best advice anyone can give is to heal thyself first of your viral anger and arrogance, because it's also infecting your music. I am not the only one who hears it. Admittedly, you've had trouble with similar criticism, anger, and basic social skills. The writing is on the thread(s)! This was my first encounter with Joe, and respectfully my last!!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Quote:
the insults cast onto me, PS, and to almost everyone in the thread, I choose to respond with humor, and now I can't stop laughing at the above chronology of events.


I apologized for that, and I apologize for any insults to you (although I was referring to critics in the abstract, not to you; other than that I don't see how I insulted you). However, many of the quotes you listed above don't really fit into that category and I was perfectly justified in making. Just because you fling a criticism at someone doesn't mean they have to agree with it.

Quote:
Joe gave an encore performance of the 24 Tirades. My favorite Prel--, I mean Tirades are Nos. 4, 6, 10, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20 (of course), 22, and the dramatic 24.


Now who's flinging the insults? If I was petty and childish, which I can perfectly admit, does your coming in and assigning me 24 Tirades really accomplish anything? (other than, in my limited opinion, making yourself seem clever).

Quote:
I am not on the site often enough to have known better than to deal with a belligerent individual. I am not hurt or angry, just very sad to see such great talent bestowed to an irate soul.


Right, and after barely knowing me at all, you feel you can claim that I'm just generally "belligerent and irate." I guess those wouldn't constitute insults to you.

Quote:
It's interesting how one's temperament and personality finds its way into the music


It is, and you may have a point there. Maybe I don't like the limp, bland, flaccid, self-consciously "musical" performances of Chopin I tend to hear in these times. Just my limited opinion of course.

Quote:
After reading your 24 Tirades, there is no purpose in explaining what "musicality" means; the best advice anyone can give is to heal thyself first of your viral anger and arrogance, because it's also infecting your music.


There's always a purpose, if only for my own enlightenment. That's what irritated me in the first place. But since you only came back and heaped ad hominem attacks (e.g., "viral anger," "arrogance") upon this conversation, I guess there isn't a point, no. As for infecting my music, I guess you believe that if you say so, then it's simply the truth (i.e., "matters of taste? no such thing!"). I don't happen to agree with that.

Quote:
I am not the only one who hears it. Admittedly, you've had trouble with similar criticism, anger, and basic social skills.


Right, I keep forgetting that the way most people argue is simply to appeal to others for the truth of their position (a classic version of the "argumentum ad verecundiam," which I think has been amply demonstrated on this thread). Maybe I do have problems with anger and criticism (though not social skills at least outside of this forum), but then maybe some of it is justified. My point in mentioning those other pianists was to show just that. Everyone may or may not like them, but that doesn't make it true that they're great or even good (from the interpretation perspective, which is pretty muddy territory) and I don't think they are personally. I think it's almost a moot point to say that's only my opinion, but in the end everyone should think for themselves and stop making appeals to authorities, such appeals by definition constituting fallacious reasoning. In your case, who knows? You didn't present any evidence to back up your points.

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 Post subject: Re: 24 Tirades, Op.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Brilliant George :lol:
Of course it is a dangerous game to take remarks out of context, but this is a priceless collection of goodies indeed.
And that for an Opus 1 - it's precocious. We should expect great things of Joe yet !
Though I had expected him to refute each of the 24 Tirades separately in a reply spanning at least 6 pages. That does disappoint me a bit.
But anyway, this is better than nothing. We need someone making an asshole out of themselves every now and then. Lest we agree too much here :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:36 pm 
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Posts: 499
Location: Connecticut, USA
Quote:
But anyway, this is better than nothing. We need someone making an asshole out of themselves every now and then. Lest we agree too much here


Yep, and as usual, I'm the only asshole who can ever admit to doing something wrong or stupid. Your, as usual, smug, though I must admit, humorous, sarcasm, proves my point :P You, of course, have never had any wrongdoing (or, put another way, I'm 100% to blame) in any of our disagreements over the past couple of years. It must be nice to be perfect :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:52 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
It must be nice to be perfect :D

Oh I would not know about that. I'm too smug to admit it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Yeah, again Kindergarten @ PS !
Thanks for the entertainment ! 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:40 am 
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Oh George - I'm so glad your sense of humor is still intact!! :D

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