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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:05 pm 
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I think the taxonomy of transcriptions of great works is very clear when we realize that some transcriptions are available that are not by great/famous musicians, ... but then there's the Brahms LH version of the Chaconne and some of the Liszt transcriptions that have greater life (and merit?) than the orginal and we're back to square one :D. I think that from the issue of dependence (the original has life of it's own, the transcription is like a virus borrowing the DNA of the host's cells in order to survive) it should first and always go under the original composer, despite the stature of the transcriber. Sure am glad I don't have to make these decisions :roll: .

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Quote:
the original has life of it's own, the transcription is like a virus borrowing the DNA of the host's cells in order to survive


Spoken like a true MD :lol:

Quote:
but then there's the Brahms LH version of the Chaconne and some of the Liszt transcriptions that have greater life (and merit?) than the orginal and we're back to square one


Good point, also the Rachmaninoff transcriptions, for instance, of the Kreisler Liebesfreud/Liebesleid, which IMO are metamorphoses that are greater than the original. But I was speaking merely of the convention (what usually seems to be done, whether I agree with it or not). There's also the case for this site of transcriptions of non-keyboard works by composers who didn't write anything for the keyboard (for instance, the Vivaldi-Bach keyboard concertos) of which I play one on the site), and the Wagner-Liszt transcriptions, the former having written very few piano pieces and none of them great. That throws a bit of a wrench into the idea of linking to both composers. I think it makes sense to go with transcriber just for convenience, since it seems to cover all of these possible cases. The transcriber is, after all, the one who put the actual ink to paper and made the decision to imitate the work at all, regardless of how good that imitation is and how great the transcriber is.

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:57 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
As far as file-naming, the composer should always go first. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! As far as where to put certain recordings, and although I know I'm just making more work for us admins, I do think the recording should go in both the composer's page and the transcriber's page. I've already put this Buxtehude recording in Buxtehude's page; I'll add it to Prokofiev's page tonight or tomorrow.

Great :)

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:06 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
I'm not convinced you wrote what you mean here. The sentences "I don't think anybody would argue that Bach-Busoni should be filed under Bach" and "I don't think anybody would argue with Bach-Busoni being filed under Bach" are almost exactly opposite in meaning; did you intend the second? In any case, I think Bach-Busoni is an exception to the general rule, so the extent that people sometimes behave as though there are three separate composers named J.S. Bach, F. Busoni and Mr Bach-Busoni ;-)

Hehe yes, I meant the second, obviously. In fact I meant 'dispute' rather than 'argue'.
Language is not my strong point :D

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:15 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Good point, also the Rachmaninoff transcriptions, for instance, of the Kreisler Liebesfreud/Liebesleid, which IMO are metamorphoses that are greater than the original. But I was speaking merely of the convention (what usually seems to be done, whether I agree with it or not). There's also the case for this site of transcriptions of non-keyboard works by composers who didn't write anything for the keyboard (for instance, the Vivaldi-Bach keyboard concertos) of which I play one on the site), and the Wagner-Liszt transcriptions, the former having written very few piano pieces and none of them great. That throws a bit of a wrench into the idea of linking to both composers. I think it makes sense to go with transcriber just for convenience, since it seems to cover all of these possible cases. The transcriber is, after all, the one who put the actual ink to paper and made the decision to imitate the work at all, regardless of how good that imitation is and how great the transcriber is.

Yes here we have it again. It would be weird to have Kreisler or Vivaldi listed as composers on the site, because they wrote nothing for the piano. OTOH it is even weirder to have Hess, Kempff, and Siloti, who did not compose, listed as composers, just because they happened to transcribe the odd Bach piece.
It is a conundrum we'll never get out of. I think we should simply forbid transcriptions. But some here might not agree :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Quote:
I think we should simply forbid transcriptions. But some here might not agree


Namely Andrew :P

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Techneut wrote:
I think we should simply forbid transcriptions. But some here might not agree

I do think you're jesting, but just in case, we do need to have transcriptions here.

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:46 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Techneut wrote:
I think we should simply forbid transcriptions. But some here might not agree

I do think you're jesting, but just in case, we do need to have transcriptions here.


Yes, he's kidding. But I sort of wish it were true. Except let's wait until I'm done working on my Rachmaninov-transcribed piece, then the rule can take effect. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:06 am 
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This discussion is deja vu, as we've examined it before. Anyway, all of the many examples I've ever encountered have always appeared as composer followed by transcriber even when the transcriber is also famous. But there are exceptions to every rule, of course.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:26 am 
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Just to join in the fun. If one can only file a piece one way, it seems to me that by composer is best. Particularly in instances such as Bach, and I wouldn't be surprised if it occured some with Buxtehude, some pieces have been transcribed by more than one composer/arranger. Filing them under the original composer allows one to see that there are different versions to compare.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Buxtedhude - Organ Prelude and Fugue (trans. Prokofiev)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:47 am 
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Quote:
nyway, all of the many examples I've ever encountered have always appeared as composer followed by transcriber even when the transcriber is also famous. But there are exceptions to every rule, of course.


True, but I don't think the conversation was about that. It was about whether transcriptions should be categorized by transcriber or by original composer (e.g., on the site).

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