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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:44 am 
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Hi Andreas,

thank you for listening again this recording. I have the Henle score, which seems being the same like your one. I shall work again the LH, the RH thirds and the end. :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:13 am 
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Could you explain me, please, what is "IR1 full" and "twin-stereo IRs" and what steps I have to do to use these plug-ins. I wanted to use them still for the four-hands-recordings by Chris and me, but I wasn´t successfull to get them into WaveLab somehow. So I don´t know, how to use them. I have downloaded all from the links you gave us.


An IR (impulse response) is a wav, or possibly another audio format, file. It is used by a plugin for adding reverberation to a recording by means of a mathematical operation combining both audio files, the IR and the recording, named convolution.
So you cannot use the Bricasti IRs without a convolution plugin. You have to put the wav IRs in a directory on your computer and load the one you want to use from the convolution plugin. True stereo IR is a set of two stereo IRs, one being used for generating L and R reverberation from the recording L channel, and the other one being combined the same with the recording R channel.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:25 pm 
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I have put the SIR_1011.dll into the VST-plugin-folder of WaveLab and it´s fantastic! I have all the different halls, spaces, rooms of Bricasti M7 now. I think this SIR must be this convolution plugin, isn´t it?
Thank you so much for these valuable links, Didier, which opens a complete new world of different reverberation- and ambience-settings. I´m actually listening to our Mozart-four-hands with Worchester-Hall-reverberation. I like this setting, but there are tons of others to discover. That´s so inspiring!
You deserve thousands of bottles of wine for this valuable advice and these links, Didier :!: (Alas, I haven´t so much at home. :wink: ) Image It´s really amazing, that all this is freeware, isn´t it?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Quote:
I think this SIR must be this convolution plugin, isn´t it?

Yes.

Quote:
that all this is freeware, isn´t it?


Yes it is. The release of the IRs by both sources of which I gave the links was approved by Bricasti. Take care on not putting reverb in excess.... :wink:

Than you for the bottles. Your piano playing advices are much more worth to me. The few hundred bottles in the cellar located just under the floor at the piano place, with an air cooling device that is a bit noisy so that I must wait it stopping for recording, are enough to me. I stopped the whisky. I shall now reduce the wine, which is more difficult to me but absolutely mandatory for stabilizing, hopefully decreasing, my weight... :cry:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:17 am 
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Didier wrote:
Quote:
I stopped the whisky. I shall now reduce the wine, which is more difficult to me but absolutely mandatory for stabilizing, hopefully decreasing, my weight... :cry:


I know this, I know this, Didier. I have totally stopped the wine, but now I really have to stop the beer. though I even have reduced it...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:30 am 
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Didier wrote:
Thank you juufa, Monica and Chris for your kind comments. I was well conscious about the strained thirds, especially the last ones on page 2 on which I spend all my Saturday evening... It was a kind of psychological barrier, I think, because they are not the most difficult one in this piece. I did not realize before that I was facing some difficulty here. Curious...
It was a bit better on Sunday morning.

Now, the slow end... :oops:
Note a choice. Only not assimilated enough, not printed in the fingers. I wanted to submit this piece before leaving tomorrow, coming backs at home on next week for a few days that should be very busy, before leaving again for 2 vacation weeks. So at best I will be able to record again this end at a more suitable tempo by the end of August. I intend to improve the whole piece but will need much more time to get it.

About the sound: I found a beautiful reverb as free impulse responses (IR) from a professional digital reverberation processor, the Bricasti M7: http://www.acousticas.net/World/IRs/AcousticasM7.zip. It's also available in a still more sophisticated form, 2 different stereo files for processing the left and right channel, from http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/category/samples/impulse-sets/. For using these IR, one need a plugin like SIR, a free version of which is available from http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html, and an audio editor compatible with such a plugin. I think that Audacity is. Take care: this is not the simplest solution for adding reverb but the result sounds especially good. As good, according to some tests, as from the true Bricasti that costs more than 3000$. I used the IR named Music Room. There are also Amsterdam, Berlin and Vienne halls... :roll: (I don't play yet good enough for using these ones.)


Hi Didier,

Is there any similar freeware reverb device that works with Mac so I could test it out?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:46 am 
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Hi Horowitzian,

you need an audio editor and a convolution plugin for exploiting the Bricasti IRs. Audacity is available for Mac. SIR1 is only available for Windows. I don't know whether there is another convolution plugin as an alternative freeware for Mac.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 am 
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I have Audacity 1.3.7 for Mac OS X, FWIW. Thanks for the info! :wink: What is the convolution plugin? I must confess to being relatively new to all this. :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:29 am 
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A plugin is a computer program that is intended to work within an host application, an audio editor in our case, Audacity for instance. There are are a lot of free audio plugins for equalizing, noise removing end so on: just google free plugins. A convolution plugin exploits implulse responses, which are synthetic or recorded audio files representing the sound signature of a room, to add reverberation to an audio file. You should google convolution plugin for MAC. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Well done Didier! And excellent sound quality, as always. You really do a great service to us amateur recorders!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Didier wrote:
A plugin is a computer program that is intended to work within an host application, an audio editor in our case, Audacity for instance. There are are a lot of free audio plugins for equalizing, noise removing end so on: just google free plugins. A convolution plugin exploits implulse responses, which are synthetic or recorded audio files representing the sound signature of a room, to add reverberation to an audio file. You should google convolution plugin for MAC. :)


Will do. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Most of the "free" ones are actually demos that make some crappy noise every ten seconds, I guess to remind you to fork over the money. And the ones that really are freeware, I have no idea how good they are. Any advice there?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:11 pm 
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The convolution plugin is mandatory but its choice is not so important. They all perform a convolution, which is the same mathematical operation for every one.

The reverb quality rely on the IR used by the convolution plugin. The free Bricasti IRs are very good. The IR form acousticas are stereo. All convolutrion plugins can use them. The IRs from signaltonoize.com are twin-stereo (2 stereo files per IR) and requires more advanced convolution plugins. I do not think that the difference between both is substantial. I could post a short demo here for comparing them if you wish.

Unfortunately for you the software offer for Mac is more limited than for PC. I can't give you any advice because I am on PC. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:53 pm 
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There's actually a good deal for Mac...but it's all extremely expensive. The cheapest one I could find was like $500 USD. :shock: I'm sure they are worth every penny, but it's overkill for me. Freeware is exactly what I need. :D

I'd like a comparison if it's not too much trouble. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:57 pm 
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I found a freeware convolver know as LAConvolver that seems to be well spoken of, and got Audacity to recognize it after some fiddling. Now I guess I need some impulse responses. :D

[edit] I downloaded that first Bricasti M7 zip file you linked to. Can't quite figure out what I'm supposed to do with them...

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Last edited by Horowitzian on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:11 am 
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For the IRs, see the links to Acousticas and Signaltonoize that I gave above.

Here attached the demos with Acousticas + SIR1 and Signaltonoize + Liquidsonics. That's my current piano work, recorded today, with preset Tanglewood (a bit early, is'nt it in September?) from Bricasti M7. The reverb is exagerated a lot for the demo purpose.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:15 am 
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Thanks! Sounds really nice and natural. :wink:

I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?

Also, I gotta figure out how the plugin I found works...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:46 am 
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The zip file from signaltonoize will not open on Mac. :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:55 am 
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OK, I've pretty much given up on the plugin I found. It doesn't seem to work in Audacity though it shows up in the effects menu. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:23 am 
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Quote:
I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?


You need only one. If you don't worry working only with the single stereo IRs, you are done. Note that both IR sets works in stereo. A true stereo IR consisting in two stereo files, instead of one only, allows for generating two different stereo reverberation components, each one from a single channel of the stereo recording, which are summed. It's an audio purist approach, but one may not hear so much an improvement...

I did not succeeded also to make Audacity work with external plugins when I tested that some times ago. But it is most likely compatible...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Hi Didier,
your examples sound wonderfully, both concerning sound-quality and playing! You really have improved your rhythmic steadiness enourmously. It´s very good now! And you play this with such a great musical feeling, that I´m deeply touched.
I like this Tanglewood preset and will try it out with my next recording, though may be the reverberation is indeed a bit exaggerated. Thanks to you that I´m able to applicate all these interesting ambiences and reverberation-settings, some of them I like more some not so, and some are really wonderful. All in all this is a great treasure you have given to us! :!:

To Horrowitzian:
During my researches with Bricasti M7 in one folder I have found an installation-introduction for MAC, if you would like I could look for it a second time. (Not sure, if I will find it again.)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:40 pm 
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If you could find it again — and it's not the one I've tried already :lol: — that would be a big help if you could find it. But take your time. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Didier wrote:
Quote:
I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?


You need only one. If you don't worry working only with the single stereo IRs, you are done. Note that both IR sets works in stereo. A true stereo IR consisting in two stereo files, instead of one only, allows for generating two different stereo reverberation components, each one from a single channel of the stereo recording, which are summed. It's an audio purist approach, but one may not hear so much an improvement...

I did not succeeded also to make Audacity work with external plugins when I tested that some times ago. But it is most likely compatible...


OK, thanks. The true stereo zip wouldn't unarchive anyway, so it's a moot point. I'll stick with the more basic one. Now to make a plugin work.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Didier, Andreas and Horowitz - I have also downloaded that AccousticasM7-1 zip file and also the SIR 1 zip file. Can one of you please tell me how to get them into Audacity? Andreas mentioned sticking it into a VST plug-in folder. Where is that folder? If someone could explain this to me, I would be very very grateful. (but please use simple terms!:wink:)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:40 pm 
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On a Mac, it will be under "your user account"<Library<Audio<Plug-ins, if you look in Finder. Or you could do a spotlight search.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Horowitzian wrote:
On a Mac, it will be under "your user account"<Library<Audio<Plug-ins, if you look in Finder. Or you could do a spotlight search.


What library? And what 'user account'? I don't have an account! Are we still talking about Audacity?
I am lost already. :? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 pm 
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You are on a Mac, right? :wink:

Open Finder by clicking on the two-faced icon on the extreme left of the dock. On the left part of the Finder window there should be some lists, Devices, Places, etc. Under Places, there should be an item labeled with your username, with a house icon next to it. Click that. Then locate the folder named "Library". Inside Library, select the folder "Audio". Then select the "Plug-ins" folder, and finally there should be a VST folder. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Horowitzian wrote:
You are on a Mac, right?


Nope - I'm on a PC.

Also, what does VST mean?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Then I can't help ya! :D

Steinberg's Virtual Studio Technology. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:40 pm 
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I just installed Audacity but did not succeed to make it work with SIR. The reason for that could be here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7873
:cry:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I saw some stuff yesterday while browsing the net that there really isn't any convolver that's compatible with Audacity right now. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I agree with this = :(

Thank you anyway, guys! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:53 pm 
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The good thing is that Audacity on the Mac has full access to the plugins that come with GarageBand. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:54 pm 
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well, guess what? I normally use Wavepad to do all my editing stuff and it does have that VST plug-in thing! Yay!!!!! :D

Now I just have to figure out how to get these files/folders or whatever over to Wavepad. It's right now asking me for the DLLs folder and the VST plug-in. Those two things - are they the two zip files I downloaded? How do I transfer them?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:54 am 
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In case anyone is interested, I think I have done it. I have the DLL and the Acousticas things in my Wavepad program. Now all I have to do is learn how to use all this stuff!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:06 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Quote:
In case anyone is interested, I think I have done it. I have the DLL and the Acousticas things in my Wavepad program. Now all I have to do is learn how to use all this stuff!


Wow, that´s great, Monica. I have it, too, now, and I can use it. I just have a little problem, but which is no real one. I described it in my thread of Saties Gnossienne.
Isn´t Didier a fantastic person, that he gave us the link to this rich treasure?!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Hi all,

near 4 years ago, I wrote after submitting my recording of this work, which is currently on Pianosociety
Quote:
I shall work again the LH, the RH thirds and the end.
.

I did it and would like the new attached recording to replace the old one.

Didier


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:29 am 
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Hello Didier, it's nice to see you here again! :)

Sometimes I like being an admin, and sometimes I do not. Right now I do not, because of what I have to tell you.... :(
I'm sorry, but we can't take this recording. There are too many things wrong with it....mostly your rhythm.

To be more specific:

1. Bars 20 and 22 - where are the thirds? Sounds like you only play one note.

2. Bars 27-28, 31-32 - the rhythm is off

3. Bars 42 and 46 - should not slow down

4. At bar 53 and on a little - you turn the steady and even LH 8th notes into a dotted rhythm (at least that how it sounds to me). In happens in another spot later on too.

5. 73-78 - more rhythm problems.

Basically, I think your beat needs to be steady throughout the whole piece. Some of the spots I mention above - if you crush the grace notes, you can get them out faster, which will in turn make the rhythm tighter and the right amount of beats in the bar. (hope that makes sense?)

Also, I have often heard from other members that my dynamics are not defined enough....this time I have to say that yours are not either. You don't get soft enough, nor loud enough. I always blame my speakers and my recording setup (which is true!). Maybe you have a similar excuse...? :wink: :)

Anyway, again, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I think that if you listen to other recordings of this piece, and then practice at a slow tempo with a metronome, you can iron out some of these problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:34 am 
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Hi Monica,

thank you for your thorough listening and for spotting me on some missing notes and rhythm issues. I will try to get this right.
Your are right blaming your speakers because my dynamics are fine ! :D
Look at the screenshot here below: the upper track is the left channel of my recording, which I applied 2 dB gain to for getting the same mean level like the downer track, which is the left channel of Brigitte Engerer's recording issued in 2008, the best version in the current discography in my opinion. (It is one of her last recordings. She passed away in last June because of a cancer, 10 days after her farewell concert at Théâtre des Champs Élysées.)


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Hi Didier,
this is a subtle interpretation in an excellent sound-quality! I have enjoyed it very much. But I have to admit, there are some rhythmical problems here and there and also with the completeness of the thirds at some places (as Monica has pointed out correctly above). Sometimes you also drop the third in the chords of accompaniment in the left hand. I also would recommend to practise the whole piece first with metronome in a very slow tempo, so that you can pay attention to all tones you have to play. When this is o.k., you could raise the tempo and at the end play it without metronome and some rubati. (And all the other musical interpretations you want to do.) But - especially in your case - a solide practising with metronome would be the base for bringing out all the marvellous and subtle things you want to do from the musical aspect and you are very able to do!

Nice to "see" you again! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Hi Andreas,

thank you for your kind comment. My interpretation is not so personal: I copied much the recording from Brigitte Engerer, except for some faults that I introduced as my own signature ! :P
I hope that I will fix the issues mentioned by Monica and yourself in a short term. I have worked too long on this piece and my previous recording currently available from Pianosociety is much worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:39 am 
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Didier wrote:
I have worked too long on this piece and my previous recording currently available from Pianosociety is much worse.

Actually, I listened to the version up on the main site and your rhythm is better in it. As far as dynamics, my speakers are good and so are my ears. I meant that I blame my mics, not my speakers. My files all look the same as yours, but it's weird...sometimes on a certain recording one can hear the dynamics changing dramatically, but on other recordings, the dynamics sound flat. Your dynamics here sound kind of flat to me, although I can 'see' that they are not...but you can't really hear it that much.... I can't explain it.

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Didier, are you taking lessons ? If not, would you consider it ? Mainly (only, really) to improve your sense of rhythm and tempo. It's such a shame, you play so beautifully and musically, and your instrument and recorded sound are top-notch. But your rhythm sucks... there is no better way to put it. You should practice with a metronome, which is necessary but by far not sufficient. Playing Bach, lots of it, will help. Expert guidance would be ideal.
Let be know what you think.

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Hi Chris,

my last lessons were 8 years ago. My teacher, who came from Kirghizistan, went away because she was not authorized staying in France. I have not time enough for taking lessons at normal hours. I am practising piano late in the evening. I am confident that I can solve my rhythm issues alone. Monica was right not accepting this submission. The next one will be better. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:06 am 
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Hi,

here is my new recording of this work.
Any remark is welcome !
Didier

Edit
I just uploaded a second file (_3). It is the same recording with extra equalization for taming more the low frequencies. I much prefer the clarity from this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Hi Didier,
It's getting better. The rhythm is still off from 1:39-1:48. Also between 1:48 - 1:55: you are tending to slip back into the uneven LH here too where you're playing it long-short, instead of even. The tempo fluctuates between 2:28 and 2:45.

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:01 pm 
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It seems better overall, certainly in the beginning where it now sounds like you appliy rather too much rubato :D
But there's still far too many many strange rhythm glitches, specifically in all the places with thirds. I remember from your Moment Musical that thirds don't come easy to you. You must take special care not to let technical issues disrupt the rhythm. Many people will not notice a slip or missed notes, but everybody notices a stumble. The better ears will notice both.

I still think you should take some lessons. You say you have no time but I don't really believe that. If you have time to practice, record, and fiddle with equalizers you surely can find some time for a lesson now and then ?

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Hi Monica and Chris,


thank you for your listening. I agree with your remarks. I will record it fully again.

Didier


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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:56 am 
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Hi Didier,

You do a terrific job creating a sense of "response" in the B section. I played this piece
and I really enjoyed your artistry at doing this.

Congratulations.

Kaila

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 Post subject: Re: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:23 am 
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Didier wrote:
thank you for your listening. I agree with your remarks.

Sorry for the continuous rhythm-bashing. There is much good here, and if you could create order in your playing your recordings would be real good.
I'd be interested to know if you hear all the glitches yourself when you listen back critically.

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