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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:55 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
For now, you may be right, since my recent interest on Bach was mainly awaken by my frustration from the quite unsuccessful practicing of that Bach-Rach piece. I practiced and practiced, but I can hardly see any technical improvement between the recording in my last post on AR and my playing now. At first I thought I have to include some etudes in my daily practicing. But which etudes? Then it occurred to me it could be a Bach, Bach in original.


Ah that was the trigger, I see. Well, I think it's normal that a difficult piece cannot be mastered the first time you approach it (at least, that is what happens to me everytime). When you feel that there's no further improvement on a piano piece, it is time to give it a rest, especially if you have been working exclusively on it.

Re which etudes can be useful to reinforce the kind of technique required by that transcription I recommend: some of the 2 Clav.variations from the Goldbergs (ex: V, XI, XIV, XVII, XX, XXIII, XXVI), some Scarlatti sonatas with jumps and crossings like the K.28 (but there dozens with jumps and crossings).

hyenal wrote:
The word "finger substitution" caught my attention! I usually use that technique to play flowing legato. In what kinds of situations could it be applied on Bach? And do you mean by "finger crossing" here just that of 4th and 5th fingers or are there another cases?


Finger substitution/changing on the same note is ubiquitous in Bach's keyboard music, particularly in the contrapuntally denser works. But you can use it every time you must or want to keep the music clean of the pedal. Finger crossing is when a finger of 'lower numeral' crosses over a finger of 'higher numeral' in a direction away from the thumb or viceversa (a 'higher' finger over a 'lower' one towards the thumb). It's very useful to obtain an otherwise unachievable legato and, in many cases, I prefer it to 'thumb under' in order to keep the hand perpendicular to the keyboard. Both finger substitution and finger crossing are helpful when you 'run out' of fingers and cannot or don't want to employ the thumb. The finger crossing piece par excellence is Chopin's Etude Op.10/2 of course.

Look at these 2 examples of finger crossing from the Bach-Rach Gigue (the second one is my fingering, probably others would put the thumb on the E#).

Image

Image


hyenal wrote:
That is what I usually do. But you know, I find very often my inner clock is disturbed by the fright in front of the recorder! Once I turned on my digital metronom in "mute" (so that I can only "see" the beats") and restarted recording the same thing. And the result was much better. But somehow I felt as if I'm cheating... I don't know...



I don’t think it’s cheating, but a bit bewildering (me). :roll:


Terez wrote:
The easier Chopin pieces did not in any way prepare me for the more difficult Chopin pieces


Well, this is true for every composer, isn't it? However what's really remarkable in Chopin is that virtually all the difficult passages in his music are entirely included in his 2 sets of etudes. Only Scriabin, to an extent, did something like that.

Terez wrote:
The prelude introduces a technique that Chopin was very fond of, because Chopin was enormously fond of functional counterpoint, but he had either a distaste for writing strict counterpoint or an insecurity complex about writing it (which would be understandable, in the face of Bach...Bach leaves the impression that any attempt on our part to do what he did with strict counterpoint would be, at best, redundant).


No biedermaier or early romantic composer would have possibly written music in the strict style à la Bach (apart sometimes Mendelssohn, clearly an exception). In the best case, the goal was to assimilate the techniques of the old masters, blending them in a new style.

Terez wrote:
Alf mentioned the WTC as didactic works, but the suites and the Goldberg variations were all published under the title Klavier-Übung


Don’t mix up the original destination of those works in their aesthetic frame of reference with the didactic use that piano teaching has historically made of them. Bach published the Partitas as (the first volume of the) Clavier-Uebung after Kuhnau’s C-U, itself a collection of suites in 2 volumes. The ‘Uebung’ here is a concept that has more to do with the composer activity than the player’s.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:16 pm 
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I don't see that, in the end, there is much difference, though. Both the WTC and the suites are both have the same sort of technical problems and the same sort of compositional approach, on the per-movement scale. Most of the suites have at least one fugue if I am not mistaken (though it would have to be in the gigues in the French Suites, and some of those are not fugal), and some suites have two, and then there are fugato and accompanied-fugue types of thing like the capriccio of the c minor partita (which is just like a gigue, double fugue with the second exposition being the inversion of the subject in the B section, and not like an accompanied one as there are no extra voices, but all three voices are in play from the beginning). All of the preludes of the WTC are classifiable as genre examples, though some are less clear than others: allemande, french overture, sarabande, etc. The suites just have more movements, and are more balanced toward the non-fugal writing; also, the opening movements of the partitas and English suites are more large-scale than the typical WTC prelude.

Alf wrote:
No biedermaier or early romantic composer would have possibly written music in the strict style à la Bach (apart sometimes Mendelssohn, clearly an exception).

Yes, but not every early romantic composer was as obsessed with Bach as Chopin seemed to be. Mendelssohn obviously being an exception. But yes, I already indicated earlier that hardly anyone wrote that way for keyboard after the piano became popular, but there were few composers who benefited as much from Bach's counterpoint lessons as Chopin did, and there lies the contrast.

Alf wrote:
Well, this is true for every composer, isn't it?

Except for Bach. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I don't see that, in the end, there is much difference, though.


That's in fact my point. Ex post, there's clearly a progressive path of difficulty in Bach's 'piano' works, from the 2-part Inventions to the Goldbergs, but it's not correct to state as you said that, for instance, the Goldbergs are a didactic work because are 'Uebungen'.

Terez wrote:
Alf wrote:
No biedermaier or early romantic composer would have possibly written music in the strict style à la Bach (apart sometimes Mendelssohn, clearly an exception).


Yes, but not every early romantic composer was as obsessed with Bach as Chopin seemed to be.


Simon Sechter was even more obsessed than Chopin with Bach and counterpoint, but nobody seems to care... :P

Terez wrote:
Alf wrote:
Well, this is true for every composer, isn't it?

Except for Bach. :wink:


Of course not, since a 2-part invention doesn't 'prepare' you for the Goldbergs or even a spot hard movement from the Partitas. This sounds quite plain to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Terez wrote:
PS - I have been practicing that Chopin etude, the 25/1, with the metronome on 4 16ths per beat.


FOUR 16ths per beat in the 25/1 means that for example at bar 29 LH plays 2.(6) notes per beat, on the first beat. That is for sure a creative way to use a metronome. :P

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:25 am 
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hyenal wrote:
But you know... I'm afraid to say I didn't understand what is the "forward toward-the-fallboard motion" :oops:

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained that very well! :oops: Hopefully this clip will explain it better than words can (I exaggerated the motion so it's more visible).

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Hey Hye-Jin!

wow you have a pretty good musical foundation if your piano teacher got you to learn all the 2 and 3 part inventions at such a young age.
Surely that must have played a positive role in your musical development.


Funny thing about bach, people play it in so many different ways, different ideas of articulation/dynamics/phrasing/tempo. Ive always found the safest bet when all else fails is to simply be very subtle/clear and let the music speak for itself. The music itself I feel is so beautiful and survives so many different interpretations and instruments.

My attitude on repertoire has always been to simply play the music which you want to play! In the case of Bach there is really so much music and different styles of music, one could easily spend their entire life on it.


b.t.w. some may be surprised that I am actually a big believer in the use of the metronome, though I am also at times fearfull of it. I believe it is important to build an internal sense of time and expression, I also know of no other way of correcting or identifying an inconsistent tempo then by the use of a metronome. Funny thing is though, the metronome as far as I know was invented in 1810 long after the death of Bach! Makes me wonder what people did back then :)


hyenal wrote:
(I bet I'll get replies from at least three persons among: Chris, Terez, Alfonso, Andreas and Stan (maybe Sarah, too?) :lol: )
Everytime I read discussions on our forums, I think I must study Bach... Bach seems to be THE solution to every kind of problem :wink:
Here is my personal history concerning Bach (and my piano playing). I started piano playing at the age of 5 and if I remember correctly I learned all the inventions and sinfonias as an elementary school kid. It was a great fun and I prefered the sinfonias to the inventions. After several years I quit the piano lessons at the age of 13 and the first P&F from WTC were the last pieces. I found the fugue very difficult and never tried to learn alone the WTC further (even though I learned many Chopins for myself). As an undergraduate I restarted to get lessons and played the second English Suite with that teacher. I remenber a slow movement was very beautiful and that is all I can say now :oops: A long break again and I restarted with lessons again here in Germany. My teacher had me once asked if I ever played Bach's partitas and let me learn the fourth and the fifth partitas. In the fourth I began to warm toward Bach's keyboard music again but my LH and the difficulty of detached touch let me much frustrated. From the fifth only the Praeambulum and the Gigue appealed to me. The others were boring... (sorry for the disability to estimate the novel music :wink:). And the LH trills in the Gigue... that sucks :x That's my last Bach and it was in the year 2007. Now I don't take lessons anymore since I have a young baby and it seems I have to teach myself if I start to study Bach again.
And here is my experience with Bach outside of keyboard pieces: I love to listen to solo violin pieces above all and like the cello suites, too. (Compared to them listening to keyboard music of Bach is rather boring at many times... I mean from a whole CD... I do like to listen to your Bach, guys :) ) Besides I had sung in a church choir here (about four years) and learned quite a few Bach cantatas. And of course heard many Bach for organ in that church, too :wink: That choir experience was very important to me - studying vocal works helped me immensely in understanding polyphony in general. As the last thing I like his Matthäus-Passion a lot but find the Christmas Oratorio boring :p

Now my questions:
Is it possible for me with such a poor experience with Bach to learn Bach alone? (Anyway I never had a teacher who is specialized in Bach-technique or Bach-interpretation, even though my German teacher is a Gouldmania.)
With which piece schould I start?
Which practice-methode is recommendable to benefit from Bach technically?

Of course any other tips around Bach much appreciated!! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I posted that recital a while back, but I posted it on the General forum, because none of it (not even one movement!) was good enough for the audition room. :lol: (It was in this thread, but not in the first post.....the links to the recital videos are further down.) One day I will get there, but I'm pretty patient in that area. Maybe I will get some recording equipment one day and record something decent when I'm not shaking in front of the audience. You should be able to see from those videos that I am pretty challenged on piano. I'm not happy with how the recital turned out, but nevertheless, I'm proud of the progress I made. I was really in horrible shape when I returned to school.

Terez, sorry for this delayed comeback. Before you made my baby poo-poo :lol: :lol: :wink: , I had watched your whole recital and I must say your Bach was really impressive! Even though I'm not familiar with that partita, I can still notice how profound your musical ideas are from your performance. You are saying that you're not satisfied with that recital and I think you are so, because you have worked on that set very intensively and you could not show all of that on that day. But you know, what you prepared for a public performance (even a part of that) must be revealed to a mature audience (including me? :lol:) Of course, you made some wrong notes, but if you hadn't correct them, those recordings are already very good! BTW it was very cunning of you to have posted that on the General forum! Do you know how many times I used the "Search" funtion to find your recordings in AR? :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:44 pm 
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alf wrote:
Terez wrote:
RSPIll wrote:
Bach possibly avoided using the metronome because Maelzel was born to invent it yet. :wink:

Shhhh, Alf is trying to be funny! :lol:


:o

The good news is that, after 1-thousand plus posts here, I can still get surprised. :lol:

:lol: :lol:
BTW I reached the 500 posts!!! :D (This is the 505th)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:59 pm 
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@Chris, Alfonso and Terez:
Thanks for the informations around the edition things! Now I think I have to pay something for good scores... What I have here in Germany is only partitas on Henle. Before I bought it my teacher showed me two scores: Bärenreiter(NBA) and Henle. He recommended the NBA, but said Henle is ok, too. I saw in NBA there is no fingering, so I decided for Henle :lol: It's funny of me that I always have preferred scores with fingering than without it, even though I must change many fingering of it at last. As Terez said, it is still interesting to compare mine with other's. (Thanks for the score example for finger substitions, Alfonso. I think your own fingering for that Gigue (3 instead of 1) very good, of which I didn't think yet)
As final question, what do you think guys is the advantage of NBA against Henle? Chris mentioned only Henle and Alfonso/Terez only NBA.

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


Last edited by hyenal on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:04 pm 
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sarah wrote:
hyenal wrote:
But you know... I'm afraid to say I didn't understand what is the "forward toward-the-fallboard motion" :oops:

I'm sorry, I don't think I explained that very well! :oops: Hopefully this clip will explain it better than words can (I exaggerated the motion so it's more visible).

Sarah, it is very endearing of you that you made that video! Thanks very much. The technique you showed help me even on that Bach-Rach set (in the Gavotte en Rondeau) :D BTW your hands on that video look pretty :)

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"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Stan wrote:
Ive always found the safest bet when all else fails is to simply be very subtle/clear and let the music speak for itself.

Hi Stan! Thank you very much for your advice :D Your view seems to say something very important, but I'm not sure if I understood it :oops: May I ask what you meant by "be subtle/clear"?
s_winitsky wrote:
wow you have a pretty good musical foundation if your piano teacher got you to learn all the 2 and 3 part inventions at such a young age.
Surely that must have played a positive role in your musical development.

Hopefully it did that :wink: This would be the general advantage of playing "classics" at young age, but at that age one cannot appreciate the musical qualities of them properly :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Ah yes it does sound like a contradiction doesn't it? :) Subtle in terms of the expressive devices one would use such as rubato, accents, dynamics, even articulations. Clear in terms of playing each separate voice precisely, making sure to hold each note for the correct duration and making sure they have relative equal prominence in terms of volume. In my case I try to give a voice just a bit of prominence if it has what you might call the main melody part, or when a voice enters while other voices are playing.

In terms of dynamics/rubatos/accents I simply try to consider the start and end of my phrases as I would with anything else, except in this case there is usually 3 or 4 independent voices to consider. Each voice may start and end at different spots.

In the case of articulations, I really find less is better then more. I much prefer no articulation to random/inconsistent articulation. Also articulation is often used as a device to distinguish between voices when the voices are very close to each other on the piano. But I think it should not sound like you articulating unless it is really somehow part of the music phrase/idea. Rather it should sound like independent voices (perhaps as you might hear it sung with the human voice.) Otherwise it makes it too evident to the listener that you are playing piano music and not music that spans many instruments. Just my opinion though :) I know there are many rules about articulation which are also very relevant.

Even in this case, I found many pros exagerate articulations, dynamics, expressions, tempo etc. They sometimes make one voice exteremely prominent etc. For me the above ideas is kind of a safe way or starting point for an interpretation.

Anyway most of this is really just my opinion, and at the end of the day, I really just like playing bach for fun!


hyenal wrote:
Hi Stan! Thank you very much for your advice :D Your view seems to say something very important, but I'm not sure if I understood it :oops: May I ask what you meant by "be subtle/clear"?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:55 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
Sarah, it is very endearing of you that you made that video! Thanks very much. The technique you showed help me even on that Bach-Rach set (in the Gavotte en Rondeau) :D BTW your hands on that video look pretty :)

I am so glad the video was useful! Thank you for the kind compliment... :D

And my congratulations on getting over 500 posts on PS! I will try to emulate your good example. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:49 pm 
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@Stan: Thank you very much for that detailed explanation, Stan. Now I see what you meant. You said you like playing Bach just for fun, but you have very clear concepts about interpreting Bach! I want to have such a solid view on my own, too. One must find it by oneself in playing Bach, right?
@Sarah: Thanks Sarah, but '500 posts' is nothing, compared to Terez' or Alf's over 1000, or Chris' over 6000!!! On the other side I think I was indeed very diligent in participating in the discussions here even though it's always not so easy for me to write something in English :D

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"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:55 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
...it was very cunning of you to have posted that on the General forum! Do you know how many times I used the "Search" funtion to find your recordings in AR? :roll:

LOL, I am flattered that you took the trouble. But I suppose not surprised. I do talk an awful lot don't I? And everyone is probably thinking, 'gee, she thinks she knows everything, but can she play?' :lol: No, I can't! So there.

Thank you for your kind comments, though, and thank you for listening to the whole recital. I don't think anyone else did. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:59 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
As final question, what do you think guys is the advantage of NBA against Henle? Chris mentioned only Henle and Alfonso/Terez only NBA.

I can't compare them but I can say that I find the fingerings in the Henle are nearly always good. I like the look and feel (as well as the smell) of the Henle books. They are very nicely made, especially the clothbound (of which I have only two but I still think they were worth the dough).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:08 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
@Sarah: Thanks Sarah, but '500 posts' is nothing, compared to Terez' or Alf's over 1000, or Chris' over 6000!!!

Haha... What's in a number. As a rule, one post from Terez or Alf is longer than 10 of mine. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:50 am 
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Perhaps you are just better at condensing your points, Chris. :wink:

Rather off-topic, but I wanted to clear this up:
alf wrote:
Terez wrote:
PS - I have been practicing that Chopin etude, the 25/1, with the metronome on 4 16ths per beat.


FOUR 16ths per beat in the 25/1 means that for example at bar 29 LH plays 2.(6) notes per beat, on the first beat. That is for sure a creative way to use a metronome. :P

Not so creative, really. Chopin wrote four sixteenths per beat in the left hand in some notable passages throughout. Since six-per-beat is intuitive for this etude, four against is slightly counterintuitive. It's simple 2-against-3, but it helps me to even out the polyrhythm, to concentrate (subconsciously) on the submissive division of the beat. I have even more trouble with the f minor t-n etude (3-against-4), so when I was first learning it, I practice the right hand against the metronome on four, and practice the left hand against the metronome on triplets. I don't get dependent on this sort of metronome practice, but it is helpful in establishing the feel of the polyrhythm. I won't be able to use it much longer, as the highest metronome setting doesn't get anywhere near performance tempo at 4-per-beat, but for now, while I'm still learning the notes of the inner pages, I find it a useful tool. I really only concentrate on every other tick, as those align with the 1 and 4 of the 6, but that subdivision is there, working its way into my brain so that I won't have to think about it any more.

OT, on editions: I have always used Bach-Gesellschaft. I have all the suites, inventions/sinfonias, and the Goldberg in a cheap $10 volume from Dover. I have gotten other scores from IMSLP. I just got some Henle editions of a few things, but I chose them mainly because NBA is harder to come by, and I'm not so sure the improvement on B-G was really worth the money I paid.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:45 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
@Chris, Alfonso and Terez:
Thanks for the informations around the edition things! Now I think I have to pay something for good scores... What I have here in Germany is only partitas on Henle. Before I bought it my teacher showed me two scores: Bärenreiter(NBA) and Henle. He recommended the NBA, but said Henle is ok, too. I saw in NBA there is no fingering, so I decided for Henle :lol: It's funny of me that I always have preferred scores with fingering than without it, even though I must change many fingering of it at last. As Terez said, it is still interesting to compare mine with other's. (Thanks for the score example for finger substitions, Alfonso. I think your own fingering for that Gigue (3 instead of 1) very good, of which I didn't think yet)
As final question, what do you think guys is the advantage of NBA against Henle? Chris mentioned only Henle and Alfonso/Terez only NBA.


I still use Henle extensively (now for example: the Italian Concerto), but I'm progressively replacing all my older Bach editions with the Bärenreiter NBA/Dürr (so far, Partitas and WTC). I agree with your teacher, Henle is OK if you cannot find Bärenreiter. I buy my scores at Di-Arezzo's (the German site is: www.di-arezzo.de), they have probably the largest classical catalogue in Europe. Prices are good and if you use the normal postal service the delivery costs 7,50 EUR. For me a good edition means also a quality paper, a quality binding and a quality typography. Henle, Wiener-Urtext and Bärenreiter rank at the top for all those features and cover most of the mainstream piano literature, plus are often less expensive than other alternatives which are often less reliable as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:51 pm 
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Chris, Terez, Alfonso, thank all of you very much for the edition informations again! :)
I live in Germany, so here you can buy Bärenreiter and Henle nearly at every local music store. (Dover is hardly to come by, I guess.) But I'll check the prices at the internet store you let me know, Alfonso, thanks!
And this would be between Off-Topic and On-Topic: which edition of Chopin Etudes would you guys recommend? I know the newest edition is Peters Critical Edition and I have one of them (Preludes). But everything is too small printed there and the binding is not so comfortable to use. Maybe this is one of many causes which let me give up to learn them so early :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:26 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
And this would be between Off-Topic and On-Topic: which edition of Chopin Etudes would you guys recommend?


Wiener-Urtext/Badura-Skoda or the new PWM/Ekier. The new PWM/Ekier should be the state of the art of what scholars know about Chopin's music. I have the Preludes and have recently ordered Valses and the misc. works (Berceuse, Fantasia, etc.). They have great commentaries but the typography is poorer compared to WUE, which is also far less expensive. Go for the WUE, I am quite happy with it.

hyenal wrote:
I know the newest edition is Peters Critical Edition and I have one of them (Preludes). But everything is too small printed there and the binding is not so comfortable to use. Maybe this is one of many causes which let me give up to learn them so early :roll:


That's exactly one of my pet-peeves, poor readability.

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Last I heard, the etudes weren't out yet in Peters. I have been waiting for those, since I work more on the etudes than any other Chopin genre. I'm going to buy it for a study edition because I'm told by several people that it's the best Chopin urtext available, covering all of its bases properly. I spend so little time with the score when learning a piece that readability doesn't affect me much.

Speaking of finger substitution and 4-5 crossing (and do you cross over, or under?), and those last few measures of the organ passacaglia...I have been avoiding working on those few measures, saving figuring out the fingering for later, working on more straightforward things in the manual parts. If I had a real edition, I could cheat, but I don't like cheating anyway. Anyway, I've finally figured out the fingerings, and I'm amazed by how smoothly it all works out. I can't think of a single instance in the simple keyboard music where Bach requires anything close to this amount of legato dense polyphony, but I'm hardly an expert, so maybe Alf knows of something. However, even if this was written for harpsichord, a certain amount of cheating would be nearly undetectable. On organ, you don't have that luxury.

Image

I thought this passage was going to break my fingers when I first tried playing it, but I quite enjoyed figuring out the fingering when the time came. It's like a logic puzzle. :lol: Anyway, it occasionally requires one hand to pick up a note in the other hand's staff, but that is another very common thing for Bach keyboard writing, and not so prominent in this passacaglia as elsewhere, with the exception of one variation that requires it quite a bit:

Image

That one reminds me a good deal of the capriccio in the c minor partita, but really, it's fairly standard stuff for Bach.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:17 pm 
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alf wrote:
Wiener-Urtext/Badura-Skoda or the new PWM/Ekier. The new PWM/Ekier should be the state of the art of what scholars know about Chopin's music. I have the Preludes and have recently ordered Valses and the misc. works (Berceuse, Fantasia, etc.). They have great commentaries but the typography is poorer compared to WUE, which is also far less expensive. Go for the WUE, I am quite happy with it.

Thanks Alfonso for sharing this useful info. Indeed Etudes of PWM kosts about 10 EUR more than WUE!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Terez, thank you for this interesting stuff! I tried to find fingerings for the first measures and gave it up on the second bar :lol: If it is not too much work, may I ask you to bother with showing us/me your fingering a bit? (just a couple of measures) I'd like to have more examples of finger crossing which I hardly do (while finger substitution is actually one of my daily things.)

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hyenal wrote:
Terez, thank you for this interesting stuff! I tried to find fingerings for the first measures and gave it up on the second bar :lol: If it is not too much work, may I ask you to bother with showing us/me your fingering a bit? (just a couple of measures) I'd like to have more examples of finger crossing which I hardly do (while finger substitution is actually one of my daily things.)

LOL, easier said than done, but I did it anyhow. It was fun. :lol: There are surprisingly few options in this passage, but there are a few things that might be done differently:

Image

Of course, that switch to 4 in the 2nd measure soprano is not strictly necessary, though it sort of happens automatically sometimes with my hand shape (by the wrist pivoting, which happens a lot in these few measures :lol:), and neither are the switches in the RH parallel 6ths at the end entirely necessary, if you are willing to do some thumb-hopping. I wrote in thumb-hopping in two places in the alto, and 2-hopping in the LH twice. But in the last bit there, it is tasteful and even customary to make a grand ritardando, so the switching is quite possible. Thumb hopping is necessary the last two moves, though, I think.....the break in the bottom note doesn't sound bad at all so long as the top voices are legato. I suppose you could pick up that last G in the LH with the pedal...but I don't know if that is allowed!

PS - If you'd like, I'll finger the other passage later. It seems straightforward enough, but the hand-switching technique is actually fairly counterintuitive.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:13 am 
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Thank you Terez ! It's great to see what others come up with as far as fingering goes.

On this subject - I often have more trouble remembering the fingering than the notes...
Busoni's Bach also has some mean fingertwisters as far as I can remember...

And regarding restarting Bach : I've had the same dilemna, but frankly (please spare me) many of the pieces do not appeal enough to me that I can learn them properly without my teacher making me slave on it. I've yet to play an entire P and F though (I've done Ps, I've done Fs, but never both - go figure)
However, the piano repertoire is something really huge ; I've found delights similar to Bach's in Glazunov, Medtner and sometimes even Scriabin.
Glazunov has that clean lyricism and a lot of polyphony and counterpoint (the 3 études, the piano sonatas - the second one first movement has a lot in common with Bach I find -, just wonderful music).
Medtner I like because you have both chordesque and polyphonic passages ; a great example of that diversity is the Tragica : the first theme has lots of chords, a melody with some minor harmonies with sometime a descending secondary voice on the left hand, while the second theme has four voices (though the thema is cantabile and one voice is marked staccato) and is hell to finger properly (unless you have more than ten of those boys).


Last edited by Teddy on Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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I haven't played any Busoni transcriptions, so I'm not going to try to make a comparison, but the thing I like about Bach's finger-twisters is that they are graceful, perfectly constructed technique, not to mention graceful, perfectly constructed counterpoint....the two happen to work together in a graceful, perfectly constructed way. It really is dancing. Bach's writing is every bit as idiomatic for the limited range polyphonic keyboard technique as Chopin is idiomatic for the piano. I feel like a lot of composers who write difficult music have awkward technical situations where the solutions are not all that artistic.

Also, I realized that on the first beat of the last measure, in the RH, I tend to slide rather than substituting: particularly there, the substitution would be illogical. All of the repeat finger situations are slides except for the last two in the alto, where an actual hop is required from the E-flat to the F. From F to G is not so bad, but still not really a slide for my hand shape. And also the 2-2 from F to G in the left hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:40 am 
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It's true that once you've mastered some of the finger twist moves, it is really fun to play. But I wouldn't say they are graceful, especially when learning it : often when playing Bach (or similar fingerpuzzles) I wonder if that's really meant to be played that way because I feel so awkward, though it ends up feeling natural.

One other thing I hate (or rather have trouble with) is practicing voice separate while keeping the "final" fingering. This goes not only for Bach, but also for most composers. I can never manage to remember the fingerings I use hands together (I usually practice without the sheet).
Fingering is also, usually, the first thing I forget in a piece, and my biggest cause of memory lapse during performance. You're playing fine and then you play a chord or a note correctly, but with the "wrong" finger, and then you just can't get back from there.
I was playing the Prokofiev first sonata for friends a while ago, and had to restart shortly after exposing the first subject (which is really nothing hard) : for a reason I play a lot of works in F minor (or C minor, simple yet emotionnal keys in my opinion !) and fingered a chord wrong, and couldn't for the life of me remember how it went after that (you know it has that chord and that chromatic line, but you just can't play it - attempting to do so will, in my experience, result in an awful sounding failure ; when it happens I just silence a few voices and sing the melody until it all comes back to me).


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Teddy wrote:
It's true that once you've mastered some of the finger twist moves, it is really fun to play. But I wouldn't say they are graceful, especially when learning it : often when playing Bach (or similar fingerpuzzles) I wonder if that's really meant to be played that way because I feel so awkward, though it ends up feeling natural.

You said it yourself, at the end. Bach's technique is not awkward at all - only counterintuitive. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:18 am 
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Terez, this is an organ piece. You don't play legato sixteenths on an organ, it would sound a mush, except perhaps on a small organ with 4" stops max. Been there, done that.. There is little point in agonizing over the fingering to achieve a perfect seamless legato.

Having said that, the ability to cross any finger over any other one is a very useful one, especially in polyphonic music, and can often lead to better solutions than finger-substituting.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:00 am 
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WHOA, forum change. :lol: And my post disappeared! Anyway....

I don't think it sounds mushy at all to play legato, lol! In fact, I think it sounds awful if it's not. There's a difference between legato and holding notes too long so they overlap. Also, I didn't 'agonize' over the fingering. :wink: After having figured it out, I'm quite sure it was intended to be played almost exactly like that.

Incidentally, you are the first organist I've ever heard say something like that, and I know quite a few of them. I know that legato is not always appropriate, but I think this passage is definitely one of those places where it's required. In any case, thanks for letting me know it was an organ piece. :P

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I don't think it sounds mushy at all to play legato, lol! In fact, I think it sounds awful if it's not. There's a difference between legato and holding notes too long so they overlap.

If you were to play this on a big organ, seamlessly legato, recording it from a listener's position, then listened back to it, you might see my point. The notes really need a little breathing space around them, or everything will sound a blur (ok, maybe not a mush). You can hear an example in the final variation of my recording of Walther's partita (starting from 11:10) where all 16ths are more or less consistently played portato. Even the slow pedal notes should have been played that way, but that is for the next recording.

Terez wrote:
Also, I didn't 'agonize' over the fingering. :wink:

Writing down the finger for each and every note seem pretty agonizing to me....

Terez wrote:
Incidentally, you are the first organist I've ever heard say something like that, and I know quite a few of them.

I don't think US organists are into HIP as much as European ones. If there's one thing I have learned in organ lessons, it is not to play legato. And listening back, I always agree to that adage.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Yay, I can post!

1. What is HIP?

2. Why 16ths, and not other note values? If there's any particular note value that calls out for detachment in this piece, I think it's the 8th.

3. What's your definition of a 'big organ'? I will be playing it on a real pipe organ if I ever manage to learn it, but I don't know that I would call it 'big'. It's in an auditorium that seats about 500.

4. I have listened to several recordings of the piece on YouTube. There were two that stuck out in my memory - one for being my favorite recording, the other for having a good video close-up of the organist.

The close-up video is Hans-Andre Stamme, at Waltherhausen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvozjEbs ... re=related

He uses portato on some of the 16ths like you suggested. I'm not fond of the way it sounds, but that's just me. But more importantly, at the end, in the passage in question, you can see that he uses legato fingering, despite playing portato. That doesn't surprise me - I don't see how you could play it otherwise. In fact, he seems to use mostly the same fingering as what I wrote, though I didn't catch all of his fingerings.

My favorite recording, Pierre Cochereau in Notre Dame (before the organ was modernized):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM1SLmAS ... re=related

Sounds to me to be as legato as can be. And I love it. And that's a big organ! :lol: He plays it a bit slower than Stamme, because it's Notre Dame and the resonance in that place is scary. I'm glad he chose to do that rather than playing portato on the 16ths!

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Terez wrote:
1. What is HIP?

Historically Informed Performance. Think Harnoncourt, Gardiner, rather than Karajan, Furtwaengler.

Terez wrote:
2. Why 16ths, and not other note values? If there's any particular note value that calls out for detachment in this piece, I think it's the 8th.

Other values too. But the faster the notes go, the more chance of them blurring all together when you don't let them breathe.

Terez wrote:
3. What's your definition of a 'big organ'? I will be playing it on a real pipe organ if I ever manage to learn it, but I don't know that I would call it 'big'. It's in an auditorium that seats about 500.

The acoustic and pipe size os more a factor than the 'size of the organ'. The sound of big pipes take longer to attack and decay, and natural acoustic aggravates that. Try playing legato running notes on a 16ft pipe.

Terez wrote:
4. I have listened to several recordings of the piece on YouTube. There were two that stuck out in my memory - one for being my favorite recording, the other for having a good video close-up of the organist.

Yikes, how I hate Bach played old-style on a French romantic organ with wailing flutes and salicionals and grinding plenum. Cocherau's recording sounds more like Franck than Bach, or maybe like catholic Bach. It becomes a wall of sound, unfortunately more a like concrete than a brick wall.
Stamm's is a lot better - he also has the better organ for this music. Though I don't much like his registrations. At least he is precise and well-articulated but even he does not keep things transparent.


Try Ton Koopman on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ocUsZRmBAA.
Already in the beginning you hear how he detaches the slow pedal notes. The consistently airy touch allows him to dance rather than grind through this piece. This is how it should sound, IMO (well maybe not for all his trills and frills which are too much of a good thing sometimes). If I can ever play organ like that I can die happily :D

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:13 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
1. What is HIP?

Historically Informed Performance.

Ah, okay. I don't think we are less into it than other places, necessarily. In academia, we are probably just as much into it, but I there is no longer an organ prof at my school (he just retired, and due to economic situation, they were able to justify cutting his spot on the faculty), and all the organists I know are church organists, trained to various degrees. That's the thing about the US....there is a church on every corner, especially here in MS, and they all need organists. That results in a lot of opportunists with no training teaching themselves how to play organ from only knowing piano (like me, though my motivation is Bach rather than a church job).

However, I have a philosophy about 'HIP', that basically boils down to this: it's important for me to know how things were done back in the day, but it is not always so important for me to do things that way. Partly because some of the changes in performance practice have come about because of improvements in the making of instruments, and also because of a sort of artistic evolution. And don't mistake the latter sentiment for an impression that music somehow becomes better as time goes on. You know how I feel about Bach. However, there are some ideas that were introduced after Bach's death, particularly in the Romantic era, that I think he would have most likely capitalized upon. It's hard to argue, but it's just as impossible to determine that he would not have done things differently, if influenced by those ideas. So, I would like to know how Bach did it, but in the end, there is still a musical choice to make, and I think that the danger of HIP is that it gives the impression that the choice is already made.

In this case, I would like to know what, exactly, the HIP guidelines are, and what, exactly, Bach had to say on the subject, if anything (via CPE works too).

Chris wrote:
Yikes, how I hate Bach played old-style on a French romantic organ with wailing flutes and salicionals and grinding plenum. Cocherau's recording sounds more like Franck than Bach, or maybe like catholic Bach. It becomes a wall of sound, unfortunately more a like concrete than a brick wall.

But was it 'mushy'? LOL. Well, it is at least clear that you and I have very different ideas about how an organ should sound. Bach was not so prejudiced against Frenchy things! :lol: I don't know why you have a problem with WALL O SOUND, because that's my favorite thing about organ. If it wasn't for that, I would stick to piano!

Chris wrote:
Stamm's is a lot better - he also has the better organ for this music. Though I don't much like his registrations. At least he is precise and well-articulated but even he does not keep things transparent.

I do like the organ he plays on, but I prefer the Notre Dame organ, I think. It's hard to say, because of course registrations have a lot to do with how it sounds. As for Stamm's registrations, from what I could tell, he didn't use a great deal of contrast at all. On his interpretation...particularly disturbing to me was the rushed ending. However...

Chris wrote:

*barf* LOL, sorry, but WTF was up with that ending? How can you not notch it up? Also...what is up with his weird tempo fluctuations? He rushes in some of the most terrible places! But the ending was the worst, and I hear in this one of the most musically disgusting examples I have ever heard of the worst danger of HIP: this notion that the music should somehow speak for itself. I can understand not liking Cochereau's fluty organ, but at least he has some notion of drama.

Chris wrote:
Already in the beginning you hear how he detaches the slow pedal notes. The consistently airy touch allows him to dance rather than grind through this piece. This is how it should sound, IMO (well maybe not for all his trills and frills which are too much of a good thing sometimes). If I can ever play organ like that I can die happily :D

I don't see how legato prevents the dance; in my humble opinion, the dance in Bach comes from a variety of articulation, rather than a rule, and also from the grace of his technique. But it looks as if we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. :lol: I agree about his ornaments being just a bit much sometimes, but there are definitely a few places where I will be adding some. And while the detached pedal does have an interesting musical effect, especially in the first couple of variations, I think I still prefer it legato.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:50 am 
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Yep, we agree to disagree, and let that be it. Indeed Koopman rushes things forward a bit at times. I could have done without that but did not find it very disturbing.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
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Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:03 am 
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Terez wrote:
Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).

Dunno - I am no HIP expert. I would assume that HIP is for a large part about playing as written. Personally I don't see the point of double-dotting. Bach writes very concisely and if he writes a single dot who are we to make it into a double one ? But then again, if this was what people did in Bach's time, there is as much justification for it as for adding embellishments. There are also modern pianists, in romantic repertoire, who have a tendency to shorten dotted notes too. Recently I noticed this with Stephen Coombs playing Glazunov's first Op.101 prelude.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:55 pm 
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I finally got to practice on the actual organ last night, for the first time. I have been practicing the manual parts on my digital with the pedal track recorded, and now that I've got them learned and memorized, I figured I'd get to the thing about learning to play with my feets. FOOT SUBSTITUTIONS. lol, finger subs are much easier! :lol: And I haven't figured out how to do it without a lot of pivoting on the bench. Every time the bassline starts over again, on that C, I have to get it first with my right foot, then the left (on a quarter note), and pivot my whole body to the right. It's so weird. But I think I got the hang of it after a few hours. Can pretty much play the whole thing now (not the fugue - haven't started working on that yet at all) except for the parts with the fiddly pedal...

I have a feeling I am going to be experimenting A LOT with registrations....and the reeds are out of tune. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I finally got to practice on the actual organ last night, for the first time. I have been practicing the manual parts on my digital with the pedal track recorded, and now that I've got them learned and memorized, I figured I'd get to the thing about learning to play with my feets. FOOT SUBSTITUTIONS. lol, finger subs are much easier! :lol: And I haven't figured out how to do it without a lot of pivoting on the bench. Every time the bassline starts over again, on that C, I have to get it first with my right foot, then the left (on a quarter note), and pivot my whole body to the right. It's so weird. But I think I got the hang of it after a few hours. Can pretty much play the whole thing now (not the fugue - haven't started working on that yet at all) except for the parts with the fiddly pedal...

So, already after a couple of hours you are playing parts of this Chaconne and feeling like you get the hang of it ? Darn, you have a lot more talent than I ....

Terez wrote:
I have a feeling I am going to be experimenting A LOT with registrations....and the reeds are out of tune. :cry:

Welcome to the wonderful world of organ playing :P

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:29 pm 
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techneut wrote:
So, already after a couple of hours you are playing parts of this Chaconne and feeling like you get the hang of it ?

Well, at first it was really weird. It's still weird, but at first, I had a hard time adding that layer of contrary motion. Because I was just getting the hang of the contrary motion in the manual parts, and of course the pedal is going in yet different directions, lol. But since I have at least been practicing with the pedal part in my ear, I think that helped a lot. It took me the longest time to figure out I could cross feet easily. That made things a lot simpler. Trust me...if it wasn't the same thing over and over again, I wouldn't have gotten the hang of it.

I've been told I'll have to learn how to tune the reeds myself. It's so much! :lol: I'm hoping a real organist will play on it some time soon and tune them....

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).


I've read and heard different takes on over-dotting in Bach. (I'll try to find my sources to give to you.)

I'm thinking that one is from Willy Palmer in the Alfred edition of the WTC. This was mostly in reference to the D maj. Fugue, #5. Some performers over dot and some do not. The editor's opinion was that over-dotting is more of a French idiom and therefore would be mostly appropriate in German music written in the French style. He also points out that in this particular fugue, there are a couple of spots that over-dotting (to continue the articulation) would result in forbidden parallels. Thus, at least in this instance of Bach, it is likely in appropriate.

Over-dotting might be appropriate in the Overture of the "French Overture" since it is intended to be stylistically French, The dotted eigth / sixteenth is a regular feature, it is usually matched with a 32nd note pattern and its pulse is rather slow.

I don't have my C.P.E Bach "True Art..." with me to see what he has to say about it. Another source to look for is Quantz work on Flute Playing, which offers more on period practice than on actual flute playing.

Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.

Scott

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:26 pm 
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@Teddy: Thank you for sharing your experience about Bach and others!
@Terez: Thank you for the fingering! I followed yours and found I would do nearly the same only if I could think up the finger crossing on the first measure :lol: Anyway it was very useful that I could see your fingering, thanks again. It's really like a logical puzzle. Finding a fingering is sometimes very exciting, indeed, but I tend to change the "logical" fingering I found at last, when my fingers choose another fingering after I'm used to the piece :roll:
BTW what's the "hand switch technique"??
@Chris: As I saw the word "HIP" in your post, it was only the German baby food HIPP which occurred to me :lol: I'm totally orientiert in things around the babys now!

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:19 am 
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lol, I also have a hard time re-learning bad fingering. Also, I just meant by 'hand-switching' that there is often a voice that is in the middle that is passed back and forth between both hands. There is a lot of that in all Bach, and a good bit in this piece in particular, especially that one variation that I didn't finger, where it gets a little bit convoluted. :lol:

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