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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:50 pm 
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For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:32 am 
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musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:56 am 
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Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:01 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

I wouldn't use any of it. Chopin recommended Cramer and Clementi, but they don't interest me. Fortunately, he also recommended Bach, and it's easy to see why. The finger gymnastics in Bach's fugues are quite similar to that of Chopin's etudes. Aside from that, I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes, aside from general skill. But what do I know? I can't play any of them.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes
Terez,
Here is what Hans von Bulow wrote in May of 1868 from Munich:
(In abbreviated fashion)

I. a. Aloys Schmitt: Op.16
__b. Stephen Heller: Op.45 [Really better to start with Op.47]
II. a. J.B. Cramer: Studies
__b. St. Heller: Op.46 and 47 [Really better to end with Op.45]
__c. C. Czerny: Daily Studies [Boo!] and School of Legato and Staccato [Yeh!]
III. a. Clementi: Gradus ad Parnassum (as selected by Tausig)
___b. Moscheles: Op.70
___also begin T. Kullak's School of Octaves
IV. a. Henselt: Selected studies from Op. 2 and 5
___b. Haberbier: Etudes-Poesies
___c. Moscheles: Op.95 Characterisic Studies
V. Chopin: Op.10 and 25 and selected few Preludes Op.28
VI. Liszt: Six Paganini Etudes, three Concert Etudes, 12 Transcendental Etudes
VII. a. Rubinstein: Selected Etudes and Preludes
____b. V.C. Alkan: selections from 12 Grand Etudes

I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Edit: [Brackets are mine]

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:27 am 
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musical-md wrote:
I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Maybe...but I would also be thoroughly bored. And I'm betting that Chopin etudes could just as easily prepare a pianist for everything listed. (And it's odd that the Chopin etudes are on the list.)

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:35 am 
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Location: Connecticut, USA
Eddy,

I completely agree with you on this. It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready. The issue, of course, is not necessarily even having the basic fingers to get through them but also getting the music out of them, which takes a certain technical freedom, one that's developed by first practicing the easier patterns in Cramer, Clementi, and Czerny. Czerny in particular seems good for learning to practice dynamics into one's playing in the early stages. It was cerrtainly part of my daily bread. I can never understand why people scoff at Czerny. It's such good fun in addition to its pedagogical value.

And the Moscheles are wonderful pieces (I think Moscheles is a very underrated composer), frequently used by Chopin as preparation for this own etudes, which he only let his very best students touch. The figuration for Op. 10, No. 2, I believe was based on one of the Op. 70. Having learned a few of the Moscheles in the past (like Terpsichore from the Grand Studies and the double thirds), I'm actually thinking about learning the rest of opus 70 before turning back to the Chopin etudes (and after I finish the preludes of course -- almost there :D )

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:53 am 
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Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

I hated Czerny as a teenager, but "rediscovered" him some years later. The second time round I found hidden depths, and indeed much beauty. (Probably I didn't appreciate him the first time round because my teacher told me it was going to be boring! I had a negative impression even before I opened the book.) I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping. And they form a valuable bridge between the (almost) pure finger technique required for baroque and classical playing and the freer approach of the romantics. Not that I'd use them as concert pieces; but I still think they're worth spending some time on.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:05 am 
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Quote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).


Me too, with the possible exception of Feux-Follets :P

Quote:
I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping.


Absolutely. It's a great way to practice dynamics and phrasing in easier patterns so that they become natural before the often physically uncomfortable patterns of the Chopin.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:19 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready.

I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

My exposure to Czerny was, like my exposure to most things, rather unbiased, since I didn't really take lessons until I was 16 - I just played what my mom had around the house. (She's not a teacher, even for her kids.) I took lessons from age 7-8 from primer books, at which point I learned to read music, but even before then I played things by ear. Mom had Czerny books, and I picked through them mostly because my mom had done a family tree type thing in needlepoint, showing the lines of study for her teacher (the one I studied with from age 16-18). She had three lines back to Beethoven, two of which were through Czerny. Anyway, none of Czerny's music ever interested me. I like Clementi better.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:35 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

Well, he did rather simplify them didn't he. The 1837 version is far more fiendish. Maybe they're 'easier' on the musical level as they do not quite have the depth of Chopin's etudes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:09 pm 
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I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher! Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:23 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

We'll worry about that once you have recorded them :P

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P I disagree by pushing any Czerny upon students. They're rather archaic training exercises. It has chased many students away from music. Nobody plays Czerny studies in concert. For a contemporary approach to technique, I would think that Hanon or Philippe exercises are more efficient, evolved, and might complement as prerequisites to learning Chopin Etudes. I still advocate learning the majority of Chopin Preludes in preparation for the Etudes from a musical and technical standpoint. The Preludes can stand by themselves in concert - they're mini-etudes, and musically mature.

My 16 yr old cousin is shrouded with Czerny, and hasn't even done a single Chopin Prelude after the Canadian RCM 10 Exam. 10 years without a single Chopin Prelude is ludicrous! I advised her to cut back on Czerny, and start learning more Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Preludes, a concerto, and enter a competition before HS graduation. She is now excited to learn new and exciting repertoire and will hopefully pursue music!

Re:
Quote:
Liszt-Paganini Etudes.
Eddy, good luck with yours. The past few weeks, I am taking care of unfinished business - I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive. Maybe it's a better appreciation for the kinesthesiology of technique over time? It's ironic that I am more efficient with respect to technique, time, and energy, than I was as a teen. These days, a limited practice schedule is against me ~ 1hr a week... This is a big challenge to see if I can accomplish something that I couldn't do as a 19 yr old?... Can 40 yr old technical efficiency can outweigh 20 yr old inexperience?... :wink:

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I wouldn't use any of it [Czerny etc.]...But what do I know? I can't play any of them [Chopin studies].

Terez wrote:
I have been playing them [Chopin studies] since I was a kid, ready be damned.

Sorry, I'm picking up mixed signals here. You give the impression that you've been playing these pieces badly for many years, because you've never acquired the technical foundation you need? If you spent a couple of months seeing what you can find in Czerny's opus 740, and then go back to Chopin, you might surprise yourself.
Terez wrote:
I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

Now this I do agree with. If you honestly hate Czerny, then you shouldn't torment yourself. It's possible to achieve much the same technical benefits from a carefully directed study of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and others. I'm not saying everyone has to follow the same path. But if you can find at least some small measure of affection for Czerny's work, it will turn out to be useful.

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