Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:39 am

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Chopin Prelude in G# minor - op. 28 no.12
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:23 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8413
I currently working on a couple preludes and I would like to know your opinion about a certain spot on this one. It's at measure 23. The second RH top note shows a C, which would mean a C# because of the key signature. But Kissin and Argerich play it as a C-natural, as do a few other recordings I've heard. I have two Preludes books and they are both different from each other. My one book has an explanation at the bottom that reads: The C-natural in the Mikuli, Joseffy and other editions is incorrect. The Autograph has C#, as do the first French and German editions.

If this is the case, why does everybody play it as a C-natural? What would you play?

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Play it as Chopin wrote it, so in this case it would be a C#....that's what I am understanding from your text.

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude in G# minor - op. 28 no.12
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:21 pm 
Quote:
I currently working on a couple preludes and I would like to know your opinion about a certain spot on this one. It's at measure 23. The second RH top note shows a C, which would mean a C# because of the key signature. But Kissin and Argerich play it as a C-natural, as do a few other recordings I've heard. I have two Preludes books and they are both different from each other. My one book has an explanation at the bottom that reads: The C-natural in the Mikuli, Joseffy and other editions is incorrect. The Autograph has C#, as do the first French and German editions.


Monica, my Henle Edition (urtext) has a natural in brackets.

Quote:
If this is the case, why does everybody play it as a C-natural?


Because it makes more sense. Measures 21-28 show a diatonic sequence, with 2 chained perfect cadences (II-V7-I: b-E7-a and a-D7-G). C-natural makes more sense in a modulation to A minor. Look at Ms. 27 for comparison.

Quote:
What would you play?


I would play C-natural.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:00 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8413
Quote:
Play it as Chopin wrote it, so in this case it would be a C#....

J - I wish it were that easy. But Chopin is known to make revisions over and over again. I can almost picture him as he sits in his carriage on the way to the publisher. A manuscript sits on his lap and he's making yet another change. Perhaps the ink isn't dry yet when he reluctanctly hands the music over to the publisher and it runs or the publisher man can't make out all the scribbled-over marks. Who knows.....

Coccobill - That makes a lot of sense. Especially comparing it with measure 27. Thanks for helping me, here. I'm going with the C-natural.

But now I have another question. At measure 30 my book says to play the last RH octave D's as D-natural. Does your Henle edition show a D# instead? I think that is also what I hear most often.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:03 pm 
Quote:
But now I have another question. At measure 30 my book says to play the last RH octave D's as D-natural. Does your Henle edition show a D# instead?


Nope, Henle shows a D-natural (and I would be surprised to find a D-sharp there). Compare measures 29-30 (harmonically static) with measures 31-32 (modulating), they are almost identical but take a different harmonic direction. At the beginning of ms. 30, in the bass, E-B instead of C-G gives a hint of such a direction.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
juufa72 wrote:
Play it as Chopin wrote it, so in this case it would be a C#....that's what I am understanding from your text.

Chopin was human, too :shock: I know, I know...but that was the whole reason why Mikuli (one of Chopin's students) set out to make new editions of Chopin's music - the French and German editions had several mistakes in them, some of which were mistakes of the editors, and some of which were just "typos" made on the autograph.
coccobill wrote:
Nope, Henle shows a D-natural (and I would be surprised to find a D-sharp there). Compare measures 29-30 (harmonically static) with measures 31-32 (modulating), they are almost identical but take a different harmonic direction. At the beginning of ms. 30, in the bass, E-B instead of C-G gives a hint of such a direction.

I disagree. (By the way, Mikuli has D-sharp.) Anyway, the D# makes a B7 (dominant 7) chord which is a natural precursor to an E chord (major or minor, but minor in this case). The D natural would make it a B minor 7 chord. This is the same problem I discussed with the 10/4 etude on the audition board - the minor 7 chord isn't a great pivot chord for this progression. That is why the same chord (the B dominant 7) is used on the third beat of measure 32 to lead to the E minor chord again. Yeah, measure 29 starts with a C chord. But it is preceded by a G chord, which is the dominant of C, just as B is the dominant of E.

D natural on the 3rd beat of measure 30 just sounds bad to me.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:44 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8413
So what is an autograph, anyway? I assumed it was the original manuscript, the very first piece of paper that Chopin wrote on. Maybe I'm wrong about that and it is actually his first re-write of a composition? Or maybe it's something somebody else re-wrote and he signed off on it, giving it his ok? I should probably research this, but if anyone knows, feel free to tell me. :)

As far as that D or D# goes, both my books again have it differently. Tomorrow, I'll go listen to every recording I can of this prelude again and see what is most common.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
pianolady wrote:
As far as that D or D# goes, both my books again have it differently. Tomorrow, I'll go listen to every recording I can of this prelude again and see what is most common.

The only recording on PS has D natural. I also have Ashkenazy, who plays D#. I'll email that one to you if you like - just drop me your email in my inbox. :)

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:45 am 
Quote:
I disagree. (By the way, Mikuli has D-sharp.) Anyway, the D# makes a B7 (dominant 7) chord which is a natural precursor to an E chord (major or minor, but minor in this case). The D natural would make it a B minor 7 chord.


Terez, at bar 30 there is not a modulation to E minor. Then, D#-G across bar 30-31 would be a really awkward melodic jump. Moreover, notice how long the 7th (A) of the B chord lasts at bar 30 (a quaver) and at bar 32 (a crotchet, compassing the D#). Chopin's writing is full of these subtleties and he wouldn't have spoiled the modulation at bar 32 anticipating the D# two bars earlier.

Quote:
That is why the same chord (the B dominant 7) is used on the third beat of measure 32 to lead to the E minor chord again. Yeah, measure 29 starts with a C chord. But it is preceded by a G chord, which is the dominant of C, just as B is the dominant of E.


IMVHO you're misinterpreting that passage, there is not any analogy there.

In the attachment you can find a scan of the Henle commentary about that problem. Unfortunately it is in German, so I hope that a charitable German speaker at PS can help us. MindenBlues, maybe?
What I understand is:
1. In the autograph the original alterations are deleted;
2. In the Fontana's copy they are (re)added by pencil, but not in Chopin's hand;
3. All the sources (but Mikuli and Paderewski editions) have D-natural;
4. There are harmonic and melodic reasons that lead to having D-natural at bar 30.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
I'll try a translation (but isn't there the same critical remark in english in your book?), and please excuse my surely improper translation (I would however like to know what sounds strange beside the long wounded phrases which are common in German):

In A the original accidentals in the last treblet octave were crossed-out , in AB there is added a sharp before every of those octave notes with pencil, appearently from a stranger hand. F has here no accidentals. In D and W there is a natural sign before the lower octave tone. But since there is a sharp after the natural sign and before the 2nd eigth note in bar 32 in A as well as in AB and in the First Editions, a distinction in the harmonic of both bars seems to be intentional, even more because this spot lives from the major/minor change.
Furthermore the downwards directed jump d2-g1 in the melodic line (bar 30-31) is more likely as d#2-g1.
In bar 32 the d#2 has an emphasized leading tone function. M and Pad note the last octace in bar 30 with #.


To the table:
AB: copy
M and Pad were used for the text revision, however without allowing them independant value as source.

_________________
Olaf Schmidt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:35 am 
Quote:
I'll try a translation (but isn't there the same critical remark in english)


Olaf, thank you very much. Unfortunately the Kritischer Bericht has not been translated in English (or French).


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:46 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8413
Again, both Kissin and Argerich play it D#. I have a couple more recordings to listen to. Thank you to all of you who have helped, although I am slightly more confused than before. (you guys are too good) And to top it off, there's yet another descrepancy in this prelude toward the end. I think I'll just wing it on that spot and hope for the best.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group