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 Post subject: The craft of piano playing
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:30 pm 
Hi all!

Have you ever read this book?If you have, the dvd version was released a month ago, so i thought you might find it interesting.
Here is the link:

http://maplegroveproductions.com


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:45 am 
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Havn't read it but a sentence on the site caught my interest. "...replaces both tension and over-relaxation with effective hand activation..."

Everyone else preaches how you should be perfectly relaxed but this has never really worked for me. Once I really try to relax my hands, shoulders, arms while keeping my fingers stiff, my playing get sloppy and I make more slips. When I do not relax that much and even phase lock the wrist for trilling really fast or make short but very fast runs, I get a much better result. Yes, I get more tired and one should not do that but for very short moments but from what I have been taught, one should never be tired in the arms from piano playing or one is doing something wrong.

I believe this is a misunderstanding originating from that one should never feel pain. But there is quite some difference between being tired and feel pain. I believe that when pushing the limits, really powering up in your entire body is not wrong while there are many ways to do this wrong.

I actually outrange my piano teacher (who has been a eurpoean touring concert pianist) in the speed of trills with my method. I am faster and can even keep the trills more consistant and also keep the speed up for a longer time. However, that is the only thing I am doing better than him ;).

But back to subject. It seems like Alan Fraser is addressing this issue and it could be interesting to watch. But the speed when trying to download the 88 MB demo is ridicolous low. In 1 hour, it will be on my hard drive (I have 24 Mbit/s so it is not because of me).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:55 pm 
Thanks for the perceptive comments about effective activation. As for the slow download rate, I am afraid it might be due to our location in Serbia, however we are looking into it and have some new solutions in the works!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:46 pm 
Video on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLg3XqQi3No


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:07 am 
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Agreed, coordination should be the technical aim. I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with teachers who advocate extreme relaxation. Motion is impossible without some tension somewhere. The problem most people have is holding simultaneous tensions in opposing muscle groups, this creates an enormous amount of friction. Often times, pianists become overly concerned, obsessed even, with downward motions while completely ignoring the fact that there must be a finely tuned mechanism in place to release the finger from the key. Developing that release mechanism is an art in itself. Letting your fingers ease up with the keys instead of actively lifting them will put you on the right track.

Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:28 am 
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looks like an interesting DVD. I can't counter with any ideas which point out "flaws" with the demo because my technique is not the greatest. What I can say is that with the short clip on octave-ing was wild. That was extremely fast.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:23 pm 
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I wonder if he has any thoughts of "curing" tendonitis. I've been told you can't.
I liked the concepts in this video and may purchase it. Except maybe my new piano teacher will teach me the same things, so I better wait.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:40 pm 
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juufa72 wrote:
looks like an interesting DVD. I can't counter with any ideas which point out "flaws" with the demo because my technique is not the greatest. What I can say is that with the short clip on octave-ing was wild. That was extremely fast.


haha yeah thoses octaves where extremely cool I think it's a interesting dvd but don't have any money on this moment to buy it :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:55 pm 
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I looked through the demo and everything he says makes sense to me and fits pretty well with what my piano teacher points out to me when there are flaws in my technique. I especially have a problem with relaxation as my hands often collapses when I try to do that. My teacher puts it "Your arms should feel like spagetthi...and your fingers like steel".

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:00 pm 
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What I have read and watched so far sounds very interesting to me too. Will read more later on.

robert wrote:
I especially have a problem with relaxation as my hands often collapses when I try to do that. My teacher puts it "Your arms should feel like spagetthi...and your fingers like steel".


It is so easy to say "Relax"! This will also not work this way. Because relaxing can't be demanded. I read somewhere, better replace the word "relax" by "release". It is because what we need to do to relax is to UNDO something instead active DO something. That is the important thing.

It can be that in my case normally my hands and shoulders are relaxed while playing piano. However, I get voice lessons and constantly my voice trainer have to remind me to release tensions in the throut, neck and everywhere. It is soooooo difficult to relax if someone demands to "execute" relaxing...

Sorry for coming off topic.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:01 pm 
pianolady wrote:
I wonder if he has any thoughts of "curing" tendonitis. I've been told you can't.
I liked the concepts in this video and may purchase it. Except maybe my new piano teacher will teach me the same things, so I better wait.



Tendonitis certainly CAN be cured, once you address the root cause, which is an improper use of self and especially of structure and function. As for the DVD, it costs less than half what a single private lesson with Prof. Fraser costs, but is worth literally dozens of lessons - don't wait!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:32 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
I sat at the keyboard placed my 5th finger (right hand) on a D# and tried to stretch my 3rd finger one octave below to a D#. I could not; I can barely stretch a 7th using this technique. It is because my 5th finger (on both hands) is small-- 2&1/4" long (5.7cm) at the base to tip. I believe that to use this technique, or many of the lessons shown, you are better off with longer fingers.

I'll sit this DVD out and wait for one to come out which targets small hands and small hands only.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:58 pm 
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joca_hdj wrote:
Tendonitis certainly CAN be cured, once you address the root cause, which is an improper use of self and especially of structure and function. As for the DVD, it costs less than half what a single private lesson with Prof. Fraser costs, but is worth literally dozens of lessons - don't wait!


I appreciate your enthusiasm for this man and his teachings. I need a master teacher to watch me play and show me one-on-one how to correct my bad habits. I'm still interested in the video and may purchase it someday. It can't hurt to hear advice from two different teachers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:24 pm 
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juufa72 wrote:
I sat at the keyboard placed my 5th finger (right hand) on a D# and tried to stretch my 3rd finger one octave below to a D#. I could not; I can barely stretch a 7th using this technique. It is because my 5th finger (on both hands) is small-- 2&1/4" long (5.7cm) at the base to tip. I believe that to use this technique, or many of the lessons shown, you are better off with longer fingers.

I'll sit this DVD out and wait for one to come out which targets small hands and small hands only.

I think the DVD has a chapter addressing small hands. I tried and I could reach on octave that way, but not comfortable and I believe it is just an example. I also can reach an octave with any finger combination of the thumb and both 2-5 and 3-5 on white keys. Heck, now when I try, I can reach an octave with any finger combination but for 4-5 and 3-4 (yes I reach with 2-3).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:35 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
I appreciate your enthusiasm for this man and his teachings.

I believe joca_hdj is Alan Fraser. Either that, or he's got shares in Mr. Fraser's business :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:40 pm 
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[quote="robert]Heck, now when I try, I can reach an octave with any finger combination but for 4-5 and 3-4 (yes I reach with 2-3).[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you'll have to post a picture of that, reaching an octave with 2-3. That sounds outrageous, you must have hands like the Rach :shock:

Actually I can do an octave with 4-5. But I can't take a picture of that for obvious reasons :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:18 pm 
I showed your posts to Alan Fraser himself, and here is his personal reply:

That is the MAIN COMPLAINT I have from viewers of the DVD: they all ask when will I do one for a small hand? But you all MISS THE POINT! I show very clearly in the video that these techniques will increase the functionality and capability of ANY hand, and ESPECIALLY a small hand. If you do what I show on the DVD, your hand will cease to feel small, will cease to behave like a small hand. "Small hand" is ALL IN THE MIND!

For instance, the rotation example is designed to introduce a new FUNCTION to your hand. Try the exercise again, and you'll have to admit, even if you can't stretch an octave from third to fifth, you CAN stretch one or two more notes rotated than you can with your hand laid flat on the keys. And try to sense the different FEELING in your hand when you do this, the new sense of flexibility and moveability! THAT's what it's all about, not about the actual interval.

Good luck and best wishes,

Alan Fraser


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:48 pm 
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Proof that despite stretching I will have small hands and cannot reach like a big hand. And I object to the opinion that small hands is all mental. We are given what we have from genetics and nothing will change the fact that people with small hands actually have small hands and no matter how many times they say "I have hands capable of playing like Rachmaninov-sized hands with a few simple stretches," they will only upset themselves down the road when someone points out that they have small hands and that's a sad fact of life.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Juufa, I just tried out. I have larger hands (I am 1.91m long), but I can't stretch my hands more like you do in the picture. You may be right, small hands remain small hands. The thing is only how they can be trained to be more flexible.
I have seen Chopin's left hand as original gypsum print in the musee de la vie romantique in Paris. He had small, really small, thin hands like a woman. Howevere the hands must have been unbelievable flexible. And enough to reach at least 10 keys with additional notes in between. That happens e.g. on the Nocturne 48/1 i am just working on a bit.
Your hands are bigger than Chopin's hands were. No need to whine about your hand size or length of your pinkies or whatever, really.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:52 pm 
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All this talk about hand size made me look at my own hands. Something I never thought about before, (well, I know it is sometimes more practical to use the fourth finger when playing octaves on black keys) but I wonder why I don't use fingers 4 and 1 on the white keys at all. I never do this but I can see that I have a longer stretch. I guess 1 and 3 would work if there weren't any notes in between. I'm so used to stretching 1 and 5 into octave length and do it without looking, but I wonder if with exercises I could make this 1 and 4 a viable or even a better alternative.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:25 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
All this talk about hand size made me look at my own hands. Something I never thought about before, (well, I know it is sometimes more practical to use the fourth finger when playing octaves on black keys) but I wonder why I don't use fingers 4 and 1 on the white keys at all. I never do this but I can see that I have a longer stretch. I guess 1 and 3 would work if there weren't any notes in between. I'm so used to stretching 1 and 5 into octave length and do it without looking, but I wonder if with exercises I could make this 1 and 4 a viable or even a better alternative.


Well, I could use thumb and any other finger to reach an octave, so thumb and index finger would go too. I think, for octave legato passages it makes sense to switch between fingers 4 and 5 while forming the octave with thumb together. On the g minor ballade there is a suggestion in my Peters score to use 3, 4, and 5 finger together with thumb for those crazy octacve passages in the middle part. It will take hours upon hours for me to get it finally on that passage :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:08 pm 
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juufa72 wrote:
Proof that despite stretching I will have small hands and cannot reach like a big hand. And I object to the opinion that small hands is all mental. We are given what we have from genetics and nothing will change the fact that people with small hands actually have small hands and no matter how many times they say "I have hands capable of playing like Rachmaninov-sized hands with a few simple stretches," they will only upset themselves down the road when someone points out that they have small hands and that's a sad fact of life.

Juufa, you have my greatest respect for playing the piano while only having 4 fingers :!: :lol:

It is true though that small but agile hands can be better that large clumsy ones. Size is not all that matters (you may have heard that one before :wink: )

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:26 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Juufa, you have my greatest respect for playing the piano while only having 4 fingers


The "ring" finger is there somewhere, it's just hidden. Behind a clumbsy middle finger.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:39 pm 
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juufa72 wrote:
The "ring" finger is there somewhere, it's just hidden. Behind a clumbsy middle finger.

Haha. It's a very good trick picture. Very nearly fooled me :wink:

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 Post subject: small hands
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:22 pm 
Ok, I had better explain exactly what I mean by "small hands are all in the mind." I find that my small-handed students all tense their hand when they need to reach a large interval. Hand extension and effortful stretching are inextricably linked in their perception. I have them do that part on the demo where I mash my palm down into the keys, and in the end their fingers lie stretched out on the keyboard without any of the usual effort associated with the position. And lo and behold, their fingers actually reach further than they did before. When they then go to play a large interval, I have them start from the 'mashed, super-relaxed' position and then depart from it minimally, so the inner tonus of their hand hardly changes at all.

Of course a small hand can't reach an 11th or 12th. But if you remove the set of reflexes commonly associated with a small hand, it does become more capable. And you really will feel that your hand is larger, and you really won't feel any more like you have a small hand. Your hand will even LOOK larger; I've seen it many times!

By the way, my student and employee Jovan doesn't exactly have shares in my company, but he does do a lot of the work developing the website etc.

Best wishes to all,

Alan Fraser


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 Post subject: that picture
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:25 pm 
I would be interested to know, juufa, does your hand feel totally bizarre and uncomfortable in that position, or does it give you an interesting sense of new movement possibilities on the keyboard?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:25 pm 
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Mr. Fraser, I too have small hands but fortunately reaching an octave is no problem, nor a 9th. But I'm confused about the section where you explain the hand mashing technique which allows you to stretch further. Where is the arch in the hand when you do this? I thought the arch was the keystone in hand position.

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 Post subject: Re: that picture
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:05 am 
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alanfraserpiano wrote:
I would be interested to know, juufa, does your hand feel totally bizarre and uncomfortable in that position, or does it give you an interesting sense of new movement possibilities on the keyboard?


If I did not have a pinkey finger I would say that this position is comfortable; however, with a small 5th finger put into a position like this and with the pressure being placed on it from my hand, I can say that it is uncomfortable and restrictive.

Despite what Liszt (or the editor of my version) calls for during the octaves in the etude (also what you suggest on your DVD--the 5th and 3rd fingers spanning one octave), I can do the same with my 5th and thumb. Albeit the fact that this piece is much greater than my current skill level, I doubt that I could play it with accuracy and speed comfortably using my technique.


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 Post subject: where's the arch?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:47 am 
Dear Piano Lady, excellent question! We do seem to be dealing with a paradox here. It turns out that the arch doesn't have to be pronounced to be functional. If you are hyper-collapsed and you even begin to hint at an inner grasping action in the hand, the arch-generation function is already activated, and before your second finger's knuckle has even risen a millimeter, your hand already has the power and functionality that stems from the arch. In many situations the hand needs to be in extension, and it's simply not possible to have a high arch. But we can still benefit from its functional contribution.

Many hands are different from mine and won't, even when they are fully functional, assume the pronouced arch position easily. Perhaps I should have made that clearer on the video, but I had a lot of info to squeeze into 90 minutes and it was inevitable that some points be presented in rather abbreviated fashion.


Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: 3-5 octaves
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:41 am 
Dear Juufa, remember the rotation and placing of the hand in that bizarre position is a kind of therapeutic exercise - you'll notice that when I actually play the passage in the demo, it doesn't really look like I am playing legato and actually joining those notes. However, something released somewhere in my hand and my wrist to make the movement not only more flexible but more functional. The moveability of each and every joint is available to the degree necessary. This is different from generic relaxation.

If you find the position uncomfortable, approach it by degrees. Never force. But gently ease your hand as far into the position as you can COMFORTABLY, and then while there, experiment a little with that rotation movement, see if by doing the rotation in tiny increments you can perhaps increase the ease with which you can sink into that position. It is NOT stretching. Feldenkrais taught us about the stretch reflex: if you stretch a muscle its automatic response is to shorten itself. No, here we are teaching the muscle neurologically, through sensation, how to lengthen more efficiently.


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 Post subject: Re: 3-5 octaves
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:34 am 
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alanfraserpiano wrote:
If you find the position uncomfortable, approach it by degrees. Never force. But gently ease your hand as far into the position as you can COMFORTABLY, and then while there, experiment a little with that rotation movement, see if by doing the rotation in tiny increments you can perhaps increase the ease with which you can sink into that position. It is NOT stretching. Feldenkrais taught us about the stretch reflex: if you stretch a muscle its automatic response is to shorten itself. No, here we are teaching the muscle neurologically, through sensation, how to lengthen more efficiently.


I only like to say that I have watched and read your demo with much interest, and what you write here sounds very convincing to me too. Even although English is not my native language i consider buying your DVD.
Only a little thing: although I normally play with curved fingers, my both pinkies tend to remain straight while playing. Someone told me I should do something against this probably bad habbit. Not easy after almost 4 decades of playing. I have seen in your demo that your pinkies weren't curved either. Does it make sense to overcome that habbit in my case?

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 Post subject: bad habit???
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:54 pm 
Dear Olaf,

I have good news, the DVD has German subtitles. More good news: it's a lot more complicated than a simple good/bad habit definition. Some people I might tell to curve their pinkies if I saw that it was hindering their technique in some way. Others I may well say nothing about it because it is not a problem. You have to look at the overall picture. How is your hand's structure and function on the key? What is your sound like? Orchestral? Full? Rich? Many-coloured? Expressive? Bland? Weak? One-dimensional? How does your hand contribute to all of this? Curved, curled or flat are all good depending on what you want to achieve in your sound. A general rule: the juicier the tone you seek the greater the amount of finger flesh you want to have actually contacting the key, and thus the flatter the finger... Horowitz curled his pinkies, it seems that I don't. Who is "right???" I worship him but it seems I don't have the same physical organization, much as though I aspire to it!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Thank you for your reply!

By the way, you speak very clearly and slowly on the DVD demo, so even for non-native Englishmen it is good understandable, also if there were no foreign subtitles.

To the thing about whether straight pinkies are a bad habbit or don't care: It shows me of course also the limit a DVD can have: because it cannot dig deeper into the personal habbits and their influence on the playing. Nevertheless, from what you said and what I have seen so far your DVD will be for sure a worthful thing and helps to improve in this or that area.

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 Post subject: personal habits
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:53 pm 
About "personal habits:" it's an interesting formulation. Makes me realize that what I am trying to do in the film is to access our basic function, something that doesn't go against personal habit but improves the way in which you do your own personal idiosyncracies no matter what they are. Which is why I hope the film can help even though I am not there personally to see which aspect should be addressed first. The film should act like a sort of template to be laid over, or even better which will underlay, what you are used to doing at the keyboard...

AFF


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